Kristen

Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice, a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counseling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Kristen

Welcome to this week's Close the Chapter Podcast. This episode was packed with so many different conversations about people pleasing, caregiving, anger, not really connecting to your own worth and value. So I can't wait to share it with you. Let me tell you a little bit about my guest. Eliza VanCort has an interesting story. She's an author, survivor speaker, and basically was kidnapped three times by her mom as a child. Then, as an adult, she lost her ability to communicate after getting hit by a car which we dive into that a little bit more. And now she has turned all of the work that she's done in therapy and in her life into a book. And it's called a woman's guide to claiming space stand tall, raise your voice and be heard. And it was named Maria Shriver's Book of the Week. And she's also been on the Drew Barrymore show we talked a little bit about that at the end of the episode, she's on tick tock has a pretty big following on tick tock, if you're on there. She has a podcast called claim your space. And she has been on numerous media outlets. She was in People Magazine, and shared about just her story and her journey. And we just kind of dive into how did she get to the place where she is writing about claiming spaces. And I think that's something that many of us struggle with, because we want to people, please, we don't want to be rejected, we don't want to not be liked. And we talk all about that in our time together. And my invitation for these episodes is you don't have to agree with everything. Just open your heart in your mind up to see what is going to come through for you. That might be an invitation for you to grow to expand. Maybe it's something you need to heal from the past, or currently, maybe a struggle within yourself or in a relationship. And this podcast is really geared towards growing. I was talking to a friend of mine. And Adrian, shout out to Sam and Adrienne. I hope this is okay to share. But she was saying that her husband Sam listens to the podcast as he's mowing. And I was like, Hey, we're mowing and growing. That could be the name of a podcast anyways, wherever you are listening to this, thank you for listening. It means the world and I appreciate you sharing it with your partner, your spouse, your friends, your co workers, your neighbors, all the people in your life that you want to have deeper, more vulnerable, authentic connections with I just want to say thank you for being who you are and open minded and your willingness to share this. I am so grateful for you. If you haven't grabbed the journal or gotten on the mailing list, you'll want to do that at Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice BO ice.com forward slash free resources. tag me on social Instagram, Facebook, Kristen D Boice. K r i s t e n sometimes it's with people think it's with an eye it's with any shout out to the all the i n Christians but without further ado, let's dive into this relationship with Eliza fancourt. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast. Okay, you've heard me talk about blaming who you are becoming more of yourself working through your past so you can live more fully in the present. And my guest today has me intrigued I dug into her background and she has an amazing book out that I can't wait to tell you about. But really we're talking about claiming space. Oh my gosh, how many of us have felt like I don't want to be rejected. I don't want to sound egotistical. I don't want people to think on the buzzword narcissists. They don't want to think I'm too much. Right and so we lean away from taking up any space. So I am so excited to introduce you to my guest Eliza van Cort. Welcome to the close the chapter podcast.

Eliza

I am really excited to be here to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Kristen

Yes, thank you. I thought what we do is start off by sharing your childhood because lots of people come to therapy or auto therapeutic journey. They're like, I don't want to go back into my childhood. No Thanks, Joe. Wanna go there? So I thought it'd be appropriate to start there because we can't really do healing without going back to our childhoods. Right? And many people shy away from that. So can you say more about your journey with being kidnapped your relationship with your mom? How you got to be where you are right now and writing this book?

Eliza

Sure. Well, I actually had a really wonderful start to my life. I had a mom who Mary Louise Marini van court, who by all accounts was an absolutely wonderful mother. And then when I was about four and a half, she got late onset paranoid schizophrenia. And she kidnapped me three times, she was not okay with my dad having custody, and she wasn't well enough to realize that he needed custody. And one of the times she took me across the country actually wants to Texas from New York to Texas, and twice from New York to California. And one of the California trips, she kidnapped me across the country by truck hitchhiking from truckstop, to truckstop, to truck stop. And what happened on that trip really started to make me conflate invisibility with safety. I really felt like if I can just be invisible, I'll be safe. But of course, being invisible isn't safe. It's incredibly dangerous. And for little girls who get the message often that I'm going to reward you for being small, living your life with that as a social construct. And then you're also from because of your personal life striving for invisibility. Claiming space is really a lifelong struggle. And I got really good at doing it for other people in my life. But it wasn't until 2013 When I was hit by a car, that my whole life changed. And if you'd like I can tell you a little bit about that.

Kristen

Yeah, my dad was hit by a car too. Are you walking, I was biking. Tell me about being hit by a car?

Eliza

Well, I swim in a big cycling family. I'm gonna brag I'm so proud of my son, Jonah, my son, Jonah had really struggled with a lot when he was growing up. And he found cycling, which really saved his life. And he ended up being a three time National Collegiate cycling champion for the US. I mean, it was just like this incredible, wonderful, magical experience. So I was a big rider, because I wanted to do and be with him. Not that I could ever keep up with them. But in the beginning, and I was going to an intersection, and somebody blue SR that I had already waited, even though it was my right away, and then another person didn't go. So I thought, okay, I'm good to go. So I started to go, and somebody just started tearing out of the intersection into the intersection. And I looked over, and actually she had just posted 15 minutes earlier on Facebook, you call it road rage, I call it aggressively maneuvering around a holes who don't know how to effing drive. So she went and she hit me, I ended up going up on the hood of her car hitting one side of my head getting knocked unconscious getting thrown into the other side of the intersection. I got a bilateral brain injury and a subdural hematoma. And when I woke up, I thought it was the same day and I went downstairs and I spoke to my husband and my ex husband and my kids. And I couldn't believe we had this great meal on the table because he wasn't wanting to make this kind of meal. And I asked him how it happened. And he said, our neighbor brought it over. And I said, Well, how's that possible? I mean, this just happened. And he said, Elijah, you've been awake for a week, your accident was a week ago. So I had serious memory issues. I know exactly what the timeline was, because it's all kind of blurry to me. But at a certain point, I was remembering better. But what I wasn't doing is I wasn't communicating well. And I didn't know it. And someone told me I called them and said, Why is everyone acting strangely, and they said, they're not, you're acting strangely, your communication shot. And you just really aren't making any sense that you're talking like a stone, third grader. And I said, I don't know what that is, but it's not good. So I had to rebuild my communication brick by brick. And the process of doing that made me had to really break down the minutiae of human behavior. And I started watching people in a way that I hadn't before. And because of my background, I was able to really synthesize all the information really well. And I basically feel like I broke down the code of communication in a way that people just don't do. And so I started doing this work giving talks, it was so powerful. And the last piece is that women would follow me to the bathroom. They'd Follow me to the bathroom. And I would stand there and they'd say, I got to ask you a question. I didn't want to ask and q&a, no matter where I was, that question was asked. And so suddenly, I realized that there are about 45 questions, no matter where I am, that are asked, and women are asking these questions because they don't want to ask them in public. And I need to take these conversations out of the darkness and into the sunlight. And that was really that formed the background of the book.

Kristen

So let's dive into a little bit about the book because your childhood your mom, there's this before mom, up until four and half and then there's an after mom. How did mom get diagnosed with that? Like, how did that onset happen? Because that sounds pretty drastic and abrupt.

Eliza

No, my father actually said, he lives. I think she had pre schizophrenia, but it was the 60s, and everyone was doing drugs. And everybody was trying to act a little crazy. And so I just thought that was like part of her personality. And he's like, now I would realize something was really wrong. We just didn't understand mental health back then. And so I just didn't get what was going on. It seemed to me like the relationship was disintegrating, because she was accusing me of cheating on her when I wasn't and all of these things, and now I realized it was the beginning of her paranoia. So it wasn't an overnight thing. But once she had a breakdown, it wasn't, there was no like, I wonder if she's mentally ill. I mean, she would walk down the street in my hometown, talking to herself, having very moving her hand. pletely. Well, the times they found her in Utah, and she hadn't showered in so long that she had these boots on and they had to cut them off. Her feet were so swollen, I mean, she was really just gone. She was not the same person. And it's degenerative, if it's not treated well, every time she had a breakdown, she would never quite recover as much as the time before. It's not like the drugs we have now.

Kristen

So how did your dad handle that? Did you have siblings? Was it just you tell us like how dad handled that, when you're getting kidnapped three times trying to raise you like, what was that? Like?

Eliza

He was I mean, there was a national APB out on me. And he was working with the police desperately to find me. It was terribly scary for him. Obviously, we were so close. He's kind of the light of my life. And actually remember, one of the times he got me back, there was this whole elaborate scheme, he got to get me back because one of the times they landed in foster care, and he didn't want that to happen again. So he just found a way to get a friend to bring me to him. And I looked at him and I started to cry. And years later, he said, I thought you were crying because you didn't want to come back to me. And I said, No, I was crying because I realized my whole world had been upside down. And you were the safe one. And I had been constructing a world that this was okay, because I just had to survive. So what he did I think that and I can't stress this enough for anyone who has somebody, a child going through a hard time. Not only was he a great dad and got me into therapy, which is so critically important. He did which was so important as he caught me women in my life, who kind of lifted me out by the big sister, Allison's Big Sister, big brother program, who I'm still close to this day, she when I had my accident, she was at the hospital, she made it before my parents did. These women who kind of decided I wasn't going to fall, they weren't going to let me just get lost saved my life. They saved my life.

Kristen

Yeah, I mean, those relationships really matter. When you're in trauma. When you're in survival state when you are kind of lost. See, your dad sounds like he knew what to do that you needed more support with therapy, and Big Brothers, Big Sisters. And those resources really helped you

Eliza

get a friend at all my teachers. He also did it in Miami, he befriended my teachers, one of my teachers, Roberta wallet, I want to shout out to her, she took me home almost every day after school, like it was her own daughter. I mean, he just really found a way to pull people into our situation to help, which is great because he was doing it alone. He was a single dad. So my stepmother came along as well. I should say, Beth?

Kristen

Oh, yes. Let's talk about that. So tell me about step mom. And how that was.

Eliza

We're so close. Obviously, any step parents step child relationship can be rocky in the beginning. But I mean, I'm gonna get home on time, but she's like one of the gifts of my life. She's wonderful. Beth Prentice.

Kristen

Okay, so tell me a little bit about how best showed up. Because a lot of times there's this wall there. Like if you've had trauma of getting too close to somebody, you're scared of getting hurt or rejected are that scary to get too close? How did you let her in? And then how did she show up that you felt safe enough to let her in?

Eliza

Well, I wouldn't say it's overnight. I mean, I don't want to make it look so easy. It was a long, long road. Because I was a really traumatized kid. They didn't have the understanding of what trauma was back then crying and hiding or whatever they're doing. It's not your kid. So you're gonna get final say, it's really complex. And she and my dad had different parenting styles. But one thing I will say is when I was kidnapped, my dad couldn't find me because my mother was such a good mother before she got sick. And so part of him felt bad. Try to rush and find me because he thought, well, maybe she's okay. Because one of the times the longest time I was kidnapped, she started out like, a little not okay, and then she got much more not okay. So when she first left, he was trying to find me, but he wasn't just spending 24/7 on it, because he thought, well, she's gonna call me I'll find Eliza, it will be okay. She's not that sick. She was such a good mom before. And my stepmother was like, No, don't count on how she was before. You have to get her back now. So she really worked to try to anneal Yeah, I think that that was critical. And you know, she's right now with everything going on with my book. She's the one who calls me every day and says how are things going? I need to know what's the latest? I mean, I call her my mom. I have two moms. I have my biological mom who really was wonderful to me until I I was at a certain age and then tried our best, but just couldn't do it. And then I have my stepmom, Beth, who raised me. And I think stepmom said child relationships can be the most rewarding relationships, because you have an ability to make an impact on a child's life without all this other mushy Gosh, in there. And I think it's pretty special. I mean, I now have been with someone for two years, and he has a child, and I absolutely adore his child. I feel like it's one of the gifts of my life.

Kristen

Yeah. And it sounds like that's what your stepmom was consistent with your mom wasn't able to offer you like she was consistently showing up where your mom wasn't able to, she didn't have that to offer?

Eliza

Oh, absolutely. And she also modeled some things for me, I really do believe the life you live as she had been in the Peace Corps. And they Paul, both she and my father were public servants, she spent her life trying to get people to have access to capital to buy houses, even if they were, quote, high risk loans. So she was really about deconstructing all the stuff that happened with redlining and my father, so they both really could have done anything. They're brilliant people and they wanted to serve. And I think it doesn't matter if it's your stepmom, or your biological mom, like she taught me the importance that if you have any kind of ability to do so you need to try in the way that you are positive impact on the world. And that is a gift that I will carry with me my entire life.

Kristen

It is you've internalized that. So it is such a gift. Did she impact it sounds like you've had a lot of people impact how you even wrote this book. So tell me the journey to get to writing this book, you had the accident where you were hit. You had your childhood, you had some mentors in your life? How did you get to this idea of writing about really taking up space establishing your space?

Eliza

Well, as I was recovering, I was noticing that there were people, they just come into the room. And I would listen to them and think, Okay, it's not that their words are different. They're saying the same words as everyone else. But somehow they have something really special. So I kept looking to see what is that one thing that one thing they have the other people don't have, I gotta figure this out. And of course, life is never that simple. It was not one thing, it was five things. And what I realized is those five things, all of those, like 45 Different things people would talk to me about in the bathroom fit into the one of those five buckets. And those are the five parts of my book. And for me, what was really the first thing that I was just so passionate about, is that when it comes to communication when I was learning and recovering, so much of what I was reading works really well for men, and particularly white men, because that's where most of the research is, and doesn't work well for other demographics and can actually make them worse, and no one was talking about it. And so I would have people come to me with coaching and they'd say, I went to this public speaking coach, or I went to a Communication Coach, or I went to someone who's trying to get me to help with my job interview, and I got worse. And he was never a white guy, because they really have that research for them. Except for it was a very highly introverted white man. But it was an extroverted way, man, they really do well with the research we have. And so I really felt like it was critically important since communication is our currency. It is really no matter what your profession is, it's how we advance in our relationships in our careers. I felt like it was really important to write that book. But then I started kind of dissecting it and realized there was so much more to the puzzle. And that's where the other four parts came in.

Kristen

Okay, so let's break this down. If someone's like, I have some childhood trauma. I am scared that I'm not enough. I'm not worthy. I am defective. Somehow, I am not pretty enough, smart enough. Fill in the blank. Where would someone begin to start healing these parts from your experience and step into their worth to start claiming space?

Eliza

Well, I can tell you the five aspects of claiming space and I think that might be able to help answer that question. Do you mind if I

Kristen

guess yeah, let's jump into that. That'd be great.

Eliza

So first of all, to me, claiming space is living the life of your choosing, unapologetically and bravely. And bravery to me is not an absence of fear. I mean, there's nothing brave to me about like some person with a sword running into the war being like, I'm not afraid and like, how can you not be afraid there are pointy things out there. So really, Bravery is fear meeting action. That's bravery to me. And so the five aspects of claiming space that help you if you do all of these things, you can actually live the life of your choosing, unapologetically and bravely start with communication, your physicality and your voice. How do you move your body in space? How do you use your vocals? Do you use silence etc? The second one is do you have community? Have you built a strong community around you? And have you gotten anti mentors out of your community? Or are you leading a bullhorn at the head of your table? The third thing is how you deal with the stuff that happened in your past. I hear a lot of people say, Well, I'm over my past or you should move on On an I actually don't think that's possible. I think that's absolutely impossible. I don't think you should. The way I see it is people have these boulders, we all have boulders that fall on us everyone does. But the question is, can you whittle that boulder down to a little pebble that you kind of carry around in your pocket? And so when something happens, you can kind of touch it and go, Oh, okay, I survived this, I'm going to be okay. Or I've seen this before I know what to do now? Do we take those things that happened to us and use them as lessons to move forward? The fourth thing is how do you protect yourself from aggressors really basic stuff? Do you know how to shut down microaggressions, things like that. And the fifth thing is intersectionality, I found that women were really, really committed to uplifting all women, not just women who looked like them, and to forging friendships with all women tended to do better. And I'm not exactly sure why. But I think the reason why is that when you hang out with people that are different than you, you make mistakes, and making mistakes is the foundation of growing and learning. And it also helps you to feel like you have a better understanding of the world, which is another way that you can be a more powerful person is just knowledge and wisdom. So I think that if you can be mindful about break down in my book exactly how to do them. Every chapter is like, this is how you can use your voice or your posture, or how do you deal with mantra mentors. If you just are mindful, no one's going to master that ever. But if you're mindful of trying to work on all those things, I truly believe I've seen so many women who've written me letters after reading my book, I think you can really learn to step into your power and claim space. Except I do want to mention that parts three, which is your old stuff. Yeah. Gotta have therapy. Yeah. Can't do it on your own. That's a huge part of it.

Kristen

Yes, so true. So let's say someone says, because this happens a lot, they come in my office. So like, I don't even know what to say. And if I say it, they're gonna get mad, they make up these stories, or maybe the person won't get mad, we don't know. But they're scared to put themselves out there and communicate, because they're afraid of the other person's response or reactivity. Right. So they will just not say anything that like it's better if I just don't say anything. So we're recreating that same pattern of not having a voice in their current relationships really in all their relationships. Or they might bottle it up and then blow up. So how do you begin to help someone that says, they're gonna get upset with me? I don't want them to be mad at me. And they're going to yell or they're going to shut down? How do you help someone get the courage to begin communicating and having a voice? Well, I've

Eliza

found that a lot of people who have that Orient, so been taught to be caregivers, they've been taught to take care of other people in their communication and in their life. So what I usually do is I tell people to flip the script. So if this were you, and somebody came to you with what you want to say, would you get mad and blow up at them? If you think you would get mad and blow up at them, then maybe you need to find a different approach to talking to them? Because there's no reason that communication needs to result in screaming and yelling, if you wouldn't, but you think they would? And the question really is for me, is this someone you need to be spending your time with? And if there's someone you can't get around? Then how are you going to lay a boundary if they get angry at you, anger will never kill you. And if somebody's angry at you, and you said your truth, that is really their feeling to manage? Not yours?

Kristen

Here's what I find. I wonder what your thoughts are. If you've had a parent that's been pretty inconsistent and reactive, highly emotional blame and shame and fear, have you hurt me? And you did it on and on and on? Do you think that is a foundational fear that people begin if they don't work on it, internalize that and it gets projected into every relationship, meaning they're afraid the person's going to react the same way?

Eliza

100% I mean, I have that my boyfriend and I call it the piano, I call it the piano. Now he jokes about I have this thing because I've had so much trauma. And every time I thought the trauma is over, there was another trauma. And it wasn't even because of the stuff that happened on the trip. I had all kinds of messed up ideas about all kinds of things. I was vulnerable to all kinds of abuse. So and then that happened, there was just so much that I had to unpack, and it's scary for me because I feel like sometimes every time I walk out of my house, a piano is gonna fall on my head. So whatever. It's a financial piano, it's a relationship piano, it's a career piano all of these pianos, and I not sure you can ever retrain your brain to think the pianos not gonna fall. Maybe you can, I don't know, I'd like to find that that person who can help me do that. But I think what you can do is say, Okay, so I'm feeling like this piano is gonna fall, I felt like a lot of pianos have fallen, and they really haven't. And if they do fall, I can manage it. So I'm going to go outside, because what's the alternative? I'm going to go outside and I'm going to live my life and I'm going to trust that things are going to be okay and that if they're not, I'm an adult now, because when that happened to me, I was younger, and I didn't know what to do. And now I do.

Kristen

Yeah, it's kind of like the inner child inside that's waiting for the next shoe to drop. Probably the next bad thing that happened. And you're like, okay, sweetheart hand over your heart center, take a deep breath, you can handle this, it's okay, we're going to step outside of our comfort zone and live life, rather than holding that protective part back, and not taking any risks or not communicating or not sharing how you really feel. And that information you get back, talk to me about when someone communicates and they get information back, let's say they find out someone doesn't like their boundaries, or someone won't tolerate them having a voice. What is that information? How is that helpful to somebody, they start communicating, they get information back, how is that helpful to somebody? Look,

Eliza

we all have different wants and needs, our needs are not always going to be fair to the other person. I always say there are three things that you can do. I don't think you can first of all, ever convince someone else to go along to believe your boundaries. Okay, if they don't, right. So if I say to you, I need to be putting lipstick on throughout this entire podcast, or I feel insecure. And you say, I really didn't want you to do that. And I say yeah, but if I don't I'll have a nervous breakdown. Maybe I will have a nursery again, I don't know. But it's unlikely you're going to convince me otherwise. So the question is, can we find a solution? Can you say, oh, we'll do this podcast with the camera off? Or whatever? Or can you say, Look, if you can't do this thing for me, I'm sorry, I can't have you on the podcast. So really, it's a question of, can you find middle ground? Can you actually talk to somebody and figure out a way with both of your true realities, they're both they're conflicting, which often is the case, often we're able to we don't have to convince someone to find some sort of compromise, we can just find a compromise within both of our perspectives, or sometimes isn't the thing, it doesn't work. And that's okay, too. Sometimes, if you put a boundary down, and someone says, I don't accept that boundary, and that boundary is not something you can move at all. You feel like it's impossible, which I think is pretty rare, then maybe that's not the person that you should be spending your time with, because your boundaries and their desires are not matching.

Kristen

Yes, I think this old idea of all or nothing black and white, right and wrong, good and bad. Like it's all gray. And two truths can be true at the same time, I can have my feelings, you can have yours and they don't have to cancel each other out. We can have space for both. So I think claiming space is also claiming space for this duality like and to truce can be true. I think there's something to be said about that. Because we feel like well, if they don't agree with me, then I'm not good enough. It's like now you don't need their agreement. They can have their feelings about what you said, and it doesn't make you less than, or does it make you wrong? And it doesn't make them wrong. Exactly. That is like a huge truth that if we could all start realizing, I think it could change so much in relationships.

Eliza

I think that's so true. I call that the Yoda cup. We're just sort of weird. But I was really bound to to use as if I have only coach people with that client comes in and says, I was hit over the head with a Yoda cup as a child, and I can't be here with this. We can sit there and say, Well, what if I put like a cup holder around it? What if I put like a little table around it? Whenever I drank I moved. I mean, I don't have to convince them that it's absurd, that this Yoda cups not gonna jump out of my hand and hit them on the head. And they don't have to convince me that like, oh, I don't need that Yoda cup when my grandma gave it to me. And I think all my power stems from it. People can have these we are human beings are so fallible, and we have so much stuff we carry with us. And if we're constantly trying to convince people to see our perspective, when we're actually all the stars in our own movie, and we forget that everyone else is not a supporting player in our movie, then we're never going to be able to find common ground. I think accepting people's reality as truth and working from there is really the first step rather than what most people do, which is try to convince the other person, you're wrong. And I'm right. Because they feel like well, God, if I'm wrong, that means I'm bad. Or if they don't believe me that I won't get what I want, which isn't true.

Kristen

Yes. And I think this leads to a deep concept for all of us that have had parents that we wanted there. I mean, we all want our parents love and attention. We want our needs met for that we're wired biologically for that. And when we don't get it, we're seeking those needs and all these other relationships. And we think if they don't meet my need, that it might not be true. Maybe maybe not. When you think of people pleasing and claiming your space. Okay. One of the biggest fears I hear from people is what other people think. So they please to try to get their needs met of connection attention, yet there's parts of themselves are stifling off. So then they still feel alone and empty. So when we think about claiming space, and people pleasing, how do we overcome this need for people approving of us liking us on social media? We've got all Other ways,

Eliza

I'm a recovering people pleaser. So I relate to this question deeply. Because when you're in a situation where you're kind of fighting for your life, your whole survival is kind of based on making sure everybody likes you. So they'll help you. Even my mentors, if I've been a jerk. I mean, these are angels walking around pretending to be humans, but some of the people who had helped me might not have helped me, you feel like you have to be this really like the most wonderful, pleasing, whatever. But the truth is, people pleasing actually makes you piss people off, I think more than it actually helps you in the long run, eventually, you're going to get annoyed or upset, and you're either gonna manipulate your way out of it, or you're gonna let someone down or you're gonna overcome it and let them down. When I was younger, I like to be around people pleasers, because I couldn't stand any friction, I'd rather have the whole relationship based on like subtext and manipulation just so I didn't have to deal. But now I really specialize, and women who tell me the truth, and I never have to worry about where they stand. It's like lying if someone's lying if to someone, if you don't lie, you don't have to remember what you said. And I think people pleasing ultimately comes down to bravery, kicking that habit, and understanding that once you're in your center, and if you're saying your truth, then really, you're going to attract people who want that. And those are the quality people you have around you. And I did lose people when I stopped people pleasing. But the people that I gained in my life are the most incredible quality people. And the people who I lost really couldn't deal with direct communication. And I just didn't want to do that anymore. So I'm not going to say I think sometimes people are like, your life will be great, and nothing bad will happen on the way change always is difficult. But if you're doing the change at service for your center, and your soul, or whatever you believe that is, it's worth it.

Kristen

It is so worth it. Because at some point we get exhausted from the caretaking the fawning the people pleasing. And we're like why do I feel alone? Well, because we're stifling our truth. And I do think saying your truth creates deeper connection. Do you experience that? Like when you come with your whole truth? Here, connections are so much deeper than the surface level connections?

Eliza

How can you really connect with someone if you're not showing them your full self, super easy, super, super clear. If you're guessing what someone thinks and trying to please them, you're not actually having a connection, you're making them think you're one thing but you're not. But if you're actually coming at them with your truth, and then they like that, or they work with that, then they're actually liking who you are. They're discussing and collaborating with who you are. And that's so much better. The guy I'm seeing now, Dan, he has two parents, they're both therapists. So he's very therapist. And he has this thing where he's all about, you state your needs. I state my needs, our feelings are never wrong, ever. We don't have to go along with the other person. But unless we know that foundational understanding of what the other person needs, we can never communicate well. And it's been good for me because I still get scared. I still don't want to save full thing. But he's so good at it. Like I'm going with him. I was always good at but I wasn't that good at it with boyfriends. This particular person is just very, I've had this excellent kind of communication with and it's really partly because he's just so unboard himself.

Kristen

That's awesome. Because I dragged my husband two months into dating. I'm like, we're doing premarital counseling. Let's get the family history on the table. Let's get how to communicate all the table. He's like, Okay, I was like, Okay, you're a keeper if you're willing to do that. So him just Dan saying these are my needs? Let's talk about it. Isn't it so free? Then you're not playing the game? Or you're not? Your subconscious? Is it like playing it out? You're being direct. And this is what I teach couples, like if we could be more direct, and you could say how you really feel instead of tap dancing around it. And then it feels exhausting.

Eliza

Totally. And you make mistakes that are so silly. We have one yesterday, I was leaving my house. It was a little bit rainy. I wanted to go for a walk. For me to walk means a very vigorous walk for an hour where my heart rate goes up, for sure. But Walk is a stroll, we had a debate whether walk with or stroll with him. But when we were leaving, it was cold out and I thought that's okay, I'll get my heart rate up. And I said, Do you want an umbrella? And he's like, No. And I thought, oh, you know what, if he doesn't want an umbrella, then we're gonna get our heart rate up anyway, it's fine. Maybe I won't go get my warmer coat. It's fine. And so I kind of assumed all these things about what he thought the walk would be, and why he didn't want to get in color, and all of these things. And really, I forgot he just hates umbrellas because he doesn't like to poke people because he's tall with them. And I really should have gotten that raincoat with the little fur lining inside of it. But he said he wanted and so I just sort of blew off my needs. And I ended up freezing to death. So and I started basically doing calisthenics walking down the street, which I don't care at this point. I'm too old to worry about that. But it was one of those things where I just thought wow, if I just had a couple more clarifying things before this walk, it would have been so much more pleasant but I made assumptions and tried to please them, and now I'm freezing.

Kristen

Yes, it's so powerful communication. And I think for me, what I've learned with clients is, the younger part of me is the people pleaser. That's the part that is trying to get a need met. It's the younger part of me, the other part of me that can speak truth with love, and patience, and it doesn't always have to be perfect is my higher, more adult self coming online. And when fear comes up, I'm like, Oh, I'm going back into my fawning. And then when I'm more aware, I can be more clear and communicate more clearly what I need, what I want and check in and say, What are your thoughts? Because it doesn't mean agreement, doesn't mean they have to agree to your point, right? Totally Recognizing this, the younger parts that still might need something that I might even need to process in therapy, or I might need to dig in a little bit deeper to see how that got activated. I think it'd be so helpful in romantic relationships in our kids will mirror that back to us in so many ways.

Eliza

I mean, I always joke that whenever I end up, looking back going, Why do I behave that way? I have this metaphor that like my inner child, like went on my shoulder and was like, I'm driving now, like we were doing here, he should have nothing to do with my choices. I said to my friend who's a therapist, and it was like, just multiple personality disorder. And she said, No, no, we all have an inner child. And sometimes they do kind of go up on your shoulder and take hold of the wheel, they chase you knowing that,

Kristen

especially when we get really scared or something, quote, unquote, triggers us. And then we're like, oh, now it's so seamless. Like one minute, you could be in your adult self. Next minute, your eight year old part or six year old part, or 13 year old part can come online, and then when you and your partner can recognize that for yourselves. And I can say okay, that was my eight year old self, I can see how that was really hurtful. And I'm so sorry, I hurt you. Now we've made a quick repair, I'm self aware to know that was my inner child, I can own it. And I can communicate clearly indirectly. And I think that is claiming space in so many ways.

Eliza

What do you literally got, I have a chapter in my book called The need to be right will make you wrong. I totally agree with you. I mean, anytime you're vested in your rightness, and you're invested and convincing people on your invested any of those things, it just doesn't, it doesn't work. And I think to society right now, in general, and we're dealing this right now in a geopolitical way, is people are really needing. I mean, I posted something on Facebook, about what's going on in Palestine in Israel. And it was really just me saying, as a parent, and I know people in Palestine, and I know people in Israel, and I said, as a parent, this is just breaking my heart. And it's just so painful. And I can't believe what these parents must be going through. And someone said, by not taking a side, you are siding with the oppressor. And I said, if you can't show empathy for people, if you can't see the human side of people, that I feel like we've really lost our way. That is not to say you can't take a stand politically, I think that's incredibly important. But I think also, we need to see the humanity behind people or else how are we going to make things better? I mean, I see that I'm not a Trump supporter. I see that with Trump supporters, people demonize them as if they're these horrific gargoyles. And I always say, Why do you think people believe what they believe? Maybe you need to like, have a conversation with people, because if we did, you might understand how we landed here. And that's really important. And I think anytime you demonize or say someone's a monster, or you stop seeing them as a person, we're kind of done.

Kristen

I think that's the whole two truths can be true. I think that's the whole concept. If we could access more empathy for ourselves, and claim space for that, I think it allows us to hold space and more empathy and compassion for others, and claim space for that.

Eliza

Absolutely. I mean, that's why the last 1/5 of my book is about claiming space for each other. I always say you can't claim space with a one woman army. Yeah,

Kristen

but I think the hardest journey is claiming space for yourself. A lot of people I go, I claim space for other people, I can have a voice for them, I advocate for them. And I'm like, Well, what about you? And then that's a whole different level of kind of a rumble of, well, I don't deserve it, or I'm not worthy. That's the rabbit hole we can get down.

Eliza

Absolutely. I also think that women are taught that it's totally fine, to be mama bears for our children and to be nurturing for others. When we advocate for ourself, that's very different. Now you'll see people say, Oh, it's so great how she went in there and like, got that teacher to do what they wanted for their kids. She was so direct, and she was I can see she was mad is great. Totally fine to be mad on behalf of your kid. If someone came and disrespected that same woman at work and she went in and she had the same energy and the same level of advocacy, she would get pushed back. So we also need to acknowledge that our society 80 does not make a lot of space for women to show anger and anger is power. There's nothing wrong with anger out of control rage, not a good thing. But focused anger is part of where we get our power. That's our body and our feelings way of saying something is that right here, and you need to listen to it. Yes.

Kristen

And I think anger turned inward is depression, like, well, we're not allowed to express it as a child are not allowed to get angry, we're not allowed to say how we really feel about something, you will see a lot of depression is shut down. And almost like a nom, I'm walking through life. But I'm not really feeling because I've turned all that anger inward. And that's a lot of journey in therapy, because people are afraid they're going to turn out like their parent that was a rageaholic, or was out of control with their anger. So they're afraid to feel it. Or maybe they weren't allowed to feel it because it was unacceptable. So a lot of its rumbling through all those emotions, including anger, and letting that be a part of expression, expressing it. That's hard for women in particular,

Eliza

totally. And it's particularly hard for certain demographics of women, like black women, and the angry black woman trope. If an if a black woman shows the slightest bit of anger in a workplace setting, compared to a white woman, she's gonna get slammed, even if she's bear or even if she's not showing anger, even if she's just being direct, she's going to be called an angry black woman. So there's just so many layers to the messages we give people, and the tolerance we have for different behaviors. And really, everyone should be able to say, I mean, I always say the way that men are able to say, look, I'm not okay with this. And I want to do this differently. I mean, in a workplace setting, I've seen men do this all the time, look, that was not done. Well, we need to do something differently. Let's do here. I think that's great. I think everyone else needs to learn that. Wonderful. Let's all see that and do it as well, because that's how we should all have the right to do that. And it's a very direct and wonderful way to communicate. But if you're told you're gonna get eviscerated, if you do it, of course, you're gonna get passive aggressive, and that doesn't benefit anybody.

Kristen

Now, that just perpetuates more what you don't want. Exactly. So what are the top three things you've done in your life to work on claiming space? What are the top three? Would you say most helpful things you've done to help you claim space?

Eliza

I love it. When I do podcasts, and somebody asked me something that I've never been asked before. You just did. Let me think the top three things that I have done things or feelings, or do you not care either.

Kristen

I'm open to whatever comes through for you.

Eliza

I think the first thing is my teaching my backgrounds in political science for undergrad. But I was an acting teacher for 20 years and I developed this version of the Meisner technique, which is all about the minutiae of human behavior. If you're watching behind me, they're all these scribbles on the wall. Those are my students, when they graduate my program, they sign the wall. And so those are the people I love behind me, which always feels really wonderful. I think the first step for me was really learning how to understand humanity a little more, which was then compounded by my accident, those two things made a huge difference that helped me claim space really taking time to observe human behavior. Observe the inequities, observe what works. I think that's incredibly important. And for me as an extrovert, it's hard because I like to talk. But when you have a head injury, you have to shut up so that I got to observe a lot. And I think introverts have some really cool skills with that. The next thing I think, is not a problem, that fear is not going to kill me. Fear is just literally a sensation in my body. If my heart's racing, if my throats tightening, if I'm sweating, that's not going to hurt me. And so if something scares me, that doesn't mean I shouldn't do it, it actually means this thing is important, or else I wouldn't be afraid. It's my body's way of saying, this is important to me. So I need to do it. And I think the last thing I've done, if I think about in my life, is understanding that if you're doing this for yourself, only, if you're out there to try to find your own enlightenment in truth, but you're not reaching out your hand for people who maybe aren't there and pulling them with you, that it's follow that I think that when we rise together, we rise so much higher. And I think that's a critical part for every human being to understand, and it helped me it changed my whole orientation on the world. And it's so critically important and empowers me as a person.

Kristen

I love those three. Those are amazing. So thank you for sharing. Thank you for your wisdom. Where can people find you the book, tell us all the things

Eliza

you can find me on all of the social media. There's some weird dummy account for authors on Facebook for me, it's not real. Go to my personal page. That's where you can find me on Facebook. I have a pretty big community on Tik Tok right. I think I've 250,000 followers or something and it's really cool people and some interesting conversations. So yeah, social media and then also my website Eliza fancourt.com. which can tell you I make my living giving talks and doing workshops. So if you want to reach me, you can reach me through my website

Kristen

antastic and you bid on the Drew Barrymore show. You've been like doing all the circuit. What's been your favorite interviewer out of all the ones you've done? All the shows you've been on?

Eliza

Yeah, I don't remember her name. It was a good day lay on Fox. If you go to my website, the interview was there. I watched

Kristen

that one. Is it your first one? Is it your first was like six and a half minutes long?

Eliza

It's pushed along. Yeah. So black woman talked a lot interview. Okay. We talked a lot about intersectionality. And that was really my favorite that I've ever done. I just love that one. I love meeting Drew. She's just the most kind thoughtful. Yeah, I was nervous. And she just locked eyes with me. And I felt immediately at ease. She's great. And then I've actually loved being on the daily blast live. Got to answer some funny questions about Barbie, which to this day was probably the most fun I ever had in an interview, they asked me about a boycott of the Barbie movie, and I just had such a delicious time answering why that was the silly thing to do. So it's a lot of fun. That's so fun. So much fun. Well, thank

Kristen

you so much Eliza for your heart and what you're putting out into the world that the difference you're making. I am so grateful for you. And I know the listeners will be too after hearing our conversation. So thank you.

Eliza

Thank you for what you're doing. It's so critically important. Truly. Thank you.

Kristen

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or family member. For more information about how to get connected visit www.kristendboice.com Thanks and have a great day.