Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter Podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode so be sure to subscribe. Welcome my friends to this week's close the chapter podcast. I am delighted, thrilled honoured that you are joining me for today's podcast. If you are in a relationship where you have different parenting ways that you approach parenting, perhaps you just don't agree. A lot of times or maybe you're uncoupling going through a divorce or a separation. We are going to be talking about how to co parent with someone that doesn't agree with you. Or maybe you're in a challenging part of your life where you're co parenting with a person you're divorced and you're really having a hard time. This is a very important episode as my guest is Mikki Gardner in she is a conscious parenting coach the host of co parenting with confidence podcast, and a mom of three her son and two bonus sons after learning how to navigate life post divorce and using it as a catalyst to her own transformation. Mickey now helps moms move past the divorce trauma to become calm, confident co parents, she is on a mission to help women navigate the emotional and practical difficulties of divorce and co parenting while creating an intentional Joy ease fill life after divorce. She is also getting ready to publish her book The people pleasers guide to co parenting well the steps to stop being the peacemaker, and start being the creator of your own peace. It's kind of a how to guide if you will, on how to break toxic communication and connect with your partner and even connect but how to manage your relationship with that partner. We talked about the how to steps we talked about the importance of self work and working on your own inner child, it's essential. If you're going through any kind of breakup or having to co parent with somebody. It's so critical, you're doing your own work. That's what consciousness means. It means your rising your level of awareness, becoming more self aware, taking ownership for your part, getting out of your defences. To get into the present moment, she has so many good tips. If you know someone going to a divorce, maybe you're in a divorce recovery group, maybe you have other friends that are going through a separation, or maybe they're in a marriage where you don't agree on parenting, this is the episode for you. So follow along on social media, pass it along, post it, I really appreciate it. When you do it helps get the word out about the podcasts. So many of you are advocates for this podcast, you're sharing it, you're advocating for it, you're posting it. Thank you for the bottom of my heart at Kristen D Boice, on Instagram and Facebook and at Kristen Boice on tiktoks. Still not getting that number down completely. And if you find this helpful, and you want to be on the mailing list so you don't miss anything or any episodes, go to kristendboice/freeresources.com. You'll also get a free journal emailed to you but you won't miss anything in the future. So without further ado, here is my conversation with conscious co parenting coach Mikki Gardner,

Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am so excited about my guests. We've had a few things come up. But we've had to reschedule a couple times. So this is extra special, that you're here with me Mickey today. So I would love for you to introduce yourself to our audience. And how do you even begin the journey of specifically focusing on co parenting?

Mikki

Thank you so much first and foremost, for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And I love the podcast and your mission and what you're doing. And it's been a journey getting here. So I'm excited that we're here today. Everything's a journey, right? I think like many people I had intended life that I had done all the things I had checked all the boxes. I was living a life that I thought was supposed to make me happy. And I'm sort of jumping way far back. But I went to college, I had my own business. I got married, I had a baby. We had the house. I mean, literally anything you said here's how to have a happy life. I checked those boxes and did it and I'm a super high achieving people pleaser. So like really went work. And then suddenly What's it felt like suddenly, I think many of us who have been through loss and trauma, you know that feeling of when everything's fine, and then the rug is just yanked out from under you. And you're suddenly on your back looking up disoriented thinking, how on earth did I get here. And for me, that was the beginning of my journey, is what I thought my marriage was, was it. And I had to come to grips start to understand what was actually happening. So that I could decide for myself for my family for my son sort of what was next. So fast forward, I am now a certified life and conscious parenting coach, I have come to this journey through my own trials and tribulation, and a lot of work having been done. And if I'm being completely honest, a lot of years spent just trying to hide it all, and act like it wasn't there and try to figure out how to move forward without actually doing the work and make it all look good. And I found that I just had to learn how to sort of be an adult, he'll repair it myself, and move forward. And when I started to do that, I found myself living with more freedom, more ease, and more love in my life. And so that is what I'm committed to helping women do today, I have a soft spot in my heart for moms who are post divorce and co parenting. Because like we talked about beforehand, co parenting I define as parenting with anybody you don't agree with 100% of time. But post divorce, there's some challenges there. That's where sort of the soft spot in my heart comes from, because you're suddenly on a team, with the last person on Earth you want to be on a team with. And so that's where I love to dive in and focus. And that was sort of a roundabout way of getting here. But that's me in a nutshell.

Kristen

Thank you for your transparency, because I do think that there is a shock to the system, and what you thought was real, and something happens and a relationship, a betrayal or what you saw a person was and you pull the curtain back and you discover it's not at all who they are. It could rock your whole perception of what was real and what wasn't interesting yourself.

Mikki

Absolutely. I think that is the one thing of learning how to, I think just heal. But definitely when we look at co parenting, how do you even start to co parent with someone when all the trust is broken? And sort of after betrayal after infidelity after any of these things that happen? We focus so much on the other person, how could I trust that person? Because what you just said, everything I thought I knew is no longer applies? Well, the trust that really gets broken, is the trust in yourself. Because I know for myself and so many of my clients, you find yourself wondering, How did I miss that? What did nice see? How long has this been going on? It's just this little bit of self doubt, which leads to self betrayal and mistrust of yourself. And so that's where we start to focus on that journey is how do you rebuild the trust in yourself so that you can start to move forward in a conscious way, in an intentional way in a mindful way into the direction you want to go?

Kristen

It's so true, because clients I work with, they just totally go well. Why did I even pick that person? Why didn't I see this at the very beginning? And why did I marry the person? Or why did I have a child with the person and they really have to go through kind of a grief process.

Mikki

It is a grieving process? Absolutely.

Kristen

I love how you set up re parenting yourself. And I love conscious parenting. So yeah, Dr. Shefali is work. And I think that in and of itself is like you said the place to begin.

Mikki

It is because like the most awkward thing for anyone to ask you to do. At a time in your life when you are most shattered, feeling most vulnerable, most broken, you are not only expected to heal from that, but you're expected to parent these small children at the same time. It's a lot to ask of any human right. And so I think it's so important. As soon as we can start to feel ourselves coming out of that fog a little bit. And there is a fog and there is a grieving period. And that grieving period lasts a really long time. Right? As we all know, grief is not like one and done. I recently had not so recently but about 18 months ago had an accident. My 10 month old puppy took me out. And while that doesn't seem like it should be a big deal, he shattered my knee, the bottom half of my knee and broke my tibia. So I was on crutches for five months. And it was interesting to me because I was devastated. Obviously I was angry like how on earth is it? I did not speak to the puppy for about recurse though, but what was interesting is I learned yet again that trauma lives in our body, it until it is processed. And I found myself a few months after the accident, really depressed, really struggling with everything in life. And it made me realise that grief isn't done. Whenever we have traumatic events, large and small come up, it's an opportunity for healing. And I feel like possibly the universe gave me the puppy as a brick wall. Because I had some work to do, that I had been avoiding. And I didn't enjoy it. I didn't like it. I was very upset about having to be there again. But I just bring it up. Because we like to think that okay, I process, I'm good now, and I'm going to move on. But that's just not how life works. And when we're in relationship with other people and our children, it's how do we become more flexible, so that we can sort of sway in the winds in the chaos, and all of that without breaking. And so to me, that's what the healing journey is really sort of talking about is how do we move forward? How do we repair it ourselves? How do we show up as the strongest, most grounded version of ourselves so that we can handle whatever comes our way, because stuff comes our way, when we least expect it?

Kristen

That is so true. And I'm glad you're healing because that does feel like it throws a wrench, and it's so overwhelming and stressful, because everything is impacted. And when you're doing it on your own. I know a lot of parents out there doing it singly on their own, it feels completely like you're on an island, and be so alone. So thank you for sharing that. How do we begin? Okay, let's talk about this. Because a many people when they get divorced, like you said, they don't want to have to co parent with this person. They are hard to talk to. They're hard to reason with. Or maybe you're in a marriage where you have two different philosophies on parenting, like you said, you're not on the same page, you don't agree. So where do we begin,

Mikki

I sort of came up with a simple framework, and it's based on everything I've learned from other people. And I was certified by Dr. Shefali, who you mentioned who I adore her work on his Oprah's parenting coach, she's got some street cred. So I always feel good about her direction. But what I learned was really, we cannot change anything that we are not aware of. So the first step into showing up differently changing the dynamic in your co parenting, learning how to deal with a difficult act, navigating parenting styles, like you said, any of these things, no matter what the issue is, there's a sort of a three step process that we have to walk through. And the first step is always awareness, because you cannot change what you are not aware of. And gov, you know, I would call myself a conscious co parenting coach. And what did even conscious co parenting or conscious parenting mean? To me, it doesn't mean perfect parenting, it's not this rigid style that you have to follow. It simply means that you're aware of what you're doing, and why you're doing it. Even if that awareness comes after the fact. And why is this important? Well, when we're co parenting with someone that we do not want to be co parenting with, maybe they are very argumentative, maybe they won't talk to you at all. Maybe there's different rules in the houses and and something that we I navigate with my clients all the time. It's stopping and being able to say to yourself, Okay, what is actually going on here? What is actually happening, versus maybe the expectation that I have, maybe the past story that I'm still bringing with me, we have to be willing to sort of learn how to separate the facts from the fiction, so to speak, and understand what is really happening. What do I have control over? And what don't I and you never, never have control over another human. As much as we will love it. As much as it would be so much easier if they would just agree with that to do what week they are getting would be so much easier. But it's just not how it works, though we have to start to understand and What is even happening in our own head, again, separating out facts from fiction, so that we can step into the next icon, the three A's but the next day, so there's awareness. And then the second one is agency. And this comes into what do I have control over? What agency is just a fancy word for tweak that? What choices do I have available to me in any given situation? Well, understanding that I can't change the other person. I can't change what's happening, right the circumstance, but I can maybe change how I'm showing up, or is there boundaries to be set? Do you need to disengage? That's oftentimes what's going on. I mean, so many times I my clients will say, Well, I have to say something. I have to do something because otherwise they'll win. Win what your sanity, your peace of mind, your well being. That's what we want to win. Not this fix. You don't game up who's on top in the co parenting dynamic. So we have to really start to be able to pull back the layers. And listen, this isn't sexy work. Nobody wants to do that it's far more fun to offload all of our emotions onto someone, and really give it to them. Like, ah, I really told them, but two seconds later, does it feel good? Oftentimes it does that. Oftentimes, we're just creating more masks that you have to clean up later. And so I really believe firmly and sort of first and foremost awareness, what's going on, so that we can move into agency, what do I have control over? What don't I have control over. And then the third A is a live action. And aligned action is all about moving in the direction that you want to go as often as you can, versus just being kind of pulled along. And I think that this sounds in theory, like, okay, easy enough, just become aware, just choose what you have available to you and then take aligned action? Well, this isn't the easiest thing to do. Because what I see so often, and I think all of us are seeing more and more and more is that the vast majority of us are living in a state of reactivity. And that is an unconscious place where we are just reacting to whatever is coming our way. And I like to think of it is it feels like you're living in a pinball machine, you're totally quiet, maybe the start of your day, everything seems fine. And then you get shot out into all these bright lights and spinny things and noises, and then you get pounded around. And then you get dropped in a black hole that out and you start over again, there's no control and, and that's how the vast majority of us are living our lives when we're unconscious, when we're unaware of what's happening. And when we're just simply reacting. And so the antidote to that is learning how to take responsibility. And I define responsibility is respond, hype and ability, it is your ability to respond to life. And to do this, we have to learn how to become more mindful, more intentional, and more directive of our actions. This is Austin, sort of I said a lot there. So I know it's great to take a breath. Yeah,

Kristen

I want to kind of make this practical, because I can think of how many cases where the parent, it could be the mother or the father. But let's just say the mother says, I am doing everything to try to communicate with my partner. I am proactively proactively sharing with them. I'm trying to give them the calendar ahead of time, I'm trying to work with them in the best way possible, but it's not reciprocated. So for example, if someone wants to plan a vacation, and you'd like to know way in advance to see when you have the kids, but they're only telling you per the guidelines 30 days in advance, but you're trying to tell them in advance. And then you're like I'm done telling them in advance because they're not doing it back. Right. And so it's almost like it's not fair. So that they they're done. They're like, I'm not going to do it anymore. Water that thing, what you'd say to somebody, that's an

Mikki

Yeah, not. So I think that's a great example, because it looks on the surface, you're doing all the things, right, you're going by the guidelines, you're trying to be proactive, you're doing all of these really good things. But what you hit on at the very end was the point is it's what's underneath that, what is our intention underneath what we're doing. Because if at any time we are trying to do these things to manipulate or get a reaction, or get somebody to do something we want, that's where we have to be really honest with ourselves. Because anytime that we have sort of these expectations or trying to manipulate the situation, it just builds up for that, because it's not reciprocated. And what we end up doing there is adding to our resentment accounts, instead of our sort of feeling good, what groundedness account if you well, if we're putting money in one bank account or the other, we don't want to keep adding to the resentment because as soon as that one starts to overflow, we lose it. It's like we just start to get stuck in that reactivity. And so it's really about learning how to be honest with yourself about what are my intention behind what I'm doing? How am I showing up. And when you do get triggered, because you are going to get triggered not because there's anything wrong with you. But because you're a human, and we get triggered by other people. That is an awesome opportunity. Every time we're triggered. It is basically your body's way of waving the flag, like hey, I need attention here. Something's going on inside I have a need that isn't being met. And so it's our opportunity to stop and to say, Okay, what's actually going on here, what's bothering me about this? And then meeting that need, either for yourself or by trying to set a boundary or get somebody else to help with that. This is the RE parenting process, learning how to listen to yourself and respond Because as long as we're not, and we're only focused on the other person, you're discounting your needs, you're discounting your experience, you're discounting what you need to do to show up as the best version of you. And so that's really part of, we oftentimes get so triggered, but the trigger is there to help us, it's there to heal. It's like we can either we can grow through things. And so learning how to do that first starts with, I like to say it's the power of the pause, when you feel triggered, or you feel overwhelmed, or you feel like you're about to blow up, and take three deep breaths in through the nose, out through the mouth, three times, if you still feel the same way, do it again, because it's teaching your body. Again, going back to the beginning of this, it's teaching yourself how to trust that you're going to show up so that you're not dependent on everyone else behaving perfectly, you're going to be okay, no matter what's happening around you. And so it's learning how to ID practically it doesn't sound overly helpful. But it's insanely helpful. When we learn how to pause, we learned just how to slow down for a second and ask yourself, what do I need in this moment? And then can you try to find that, so the example you gave of wanting to have everything on the calendar, maybe or studying a vacation, everybody's situation is different. But part of it is understanding, okay, here's what is within the guidelines that we have set for it. So I'm going to work within those, instead of maybe trying to do something, if you can't plan six months in advance that try,

Kristen

you're already planning, they want the other person to play it. That's the whole point. And they're doing it because they want the other person to do the same thing. So if I do that, I hope that they're gonna do this. That's where we're lined. That's where it Yeah, where it's to go awry. Because you still have to this person, what it's like to be the bigger person, well, the person is not gonna get the memo. They don't know, go, and then you're gonna get angry, and feel that

Mikki

all. Exactly. And it's asking yourself, why do I need that and to behave that way? How would things be different if they were behaving that way? There's a lot of clues in those kinds of questions. When we stop and get curious around what's actually going on? Well, I need to feel in control, or I need to feel like I'm being heard, or I need whatever it is, okay, then how do I do that for myself in this moment, sometimes it's just being present to how you're feeling sometimes being present, too. I really hate that this is what I have to do. I don't like it. I wish the other person were different. Okay, instead of trying to fight against it. If we can sit with it for a moment, pause, and then decide, still, I'm aware that I don't like this, right? I'm aware of sort of what's going on? What do I have control over? And then move forward in that direction? It's really learning how to tap into what you have control over, which is you your thoughts, your feelings and your action? And going from there? Like if we really start taking responsibility for those things. The world's limitless,

Kristen

it is hard when you're triggered for people aren't me, it's so because it feels so unfair. It feels like you're working with a child, even though we all have inner child parts, right? Yeah, everybody does. But I see, the part of that I see people struggle with is they want it to be reciprocated. And when it's not reciprocal, they want to be understood. They want to be heard, they want to be acknowledged, and they want the person to be reasonable. Can you just see my point, and they spin their wheels? So that means you're talking about with an email or a text of like, don't respond. And because you feel grounded in your body into your feet, that might be a day two days or a week or you may not respond at all if it doesn't warrant a response.

Mikki

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's sometimes I feel like it's really helpful to to put in a 24 hour rule is, unless it's something that absolutely needs to be responded to this moment. Maybe you just genuinely do not respond to anything, and giving yourself that 24 hours to be able to do exactly what you just said, ground become present so that you can become aware of what's going on so that you can start to decide, well, what do I have control over here? All of these things, but we have to train ourselves to be able to get there. And we all get triggered. Like I said, triggering is normal. But what we want to do is start to build the muscle of being able to stop and pause. As soon as you become aware of it, you've already won, because you already have awareness. And so then you stop pause. And I do think it's super helpful to have something in place to know, this is how I respond when I'm triggered. I don't respond or I really sort of step back. I give myself this space.

Kristen

Let's keep going along these lines because communication, whether you're married or there's a communication gap or your or separated or divorced, or you're trying to uncouple or however that looks, communication seems to be one of the biggest triggers, if you will, in relationships? Absolutely. How do people communicate effectively with someone that may not communicate or doesn't have very good communication skills, like they just don't communicate well, or they're functioning from their inner child most of the time, help us walk us through that piece.

Mikki

This is where having a coach or a mentor, someone, a therapist is so helpful, because oftentimes, what you just described, we're in the forest, who can't see the forest for the trees, we're in it. And so being able to get some objectivity have somebody to help you sort of start to see the trees in front of you. But I think as it relates to communication, having good communication skills, game changer in life, I'm not one of those people. I mean, I know my poor ex husband were married, it was just my way or the highway, right? Like, that's just the way that it was. And it worked until it didn't. So I had to start to learn how to communicate differently. Because I made the choice. I remember very distinctly, when I said, we were going to separate myself, I don't know how we're going to do this, but I believe that we're still a family. And so you and I have to figure out how to be a family in two houses. And we're gonna have to learn how to communicate differently. And I had no idea what I was saying how that was gonna work, or how hard that was going to be. But what I see a lot of people get into is kind of going back, Chris into what we were talking about a minute ago, is it's we're wanting to do something to get the result that we want. And if we don't get the result, then we're kind of like, well, why bother? Well, with communication, and I think co parenting in general, it's a long game. So we have to be in it for the long haul and not look at maybe the day to day result, versus how am I feeling about how I'm showing up? How clean is my side of the street, you have 100% responsibility or your 50%. And so that's where you focus. And I think it's important to look at communication, because one thing that I see, and I'm sure you do all the time, have one parent will send a pretty easy text, did you get the soccer equipment, whatever, I'm just using that example. And then they are going to get a response back? Which How do you suggest that I didn't have the soccer equipment? I have, you know, and blah, blah, blah, well, then right, there is your opportunity, because what often happens is oh my gosh, how could they think that? And you either No, no, you misunderstood me blah, blah, blah, or how dare you? This is what I meant. And now then sends that response. Now they're going to respond, right? And it's the attack, blame attack, blames iral That is vicious and gets out of control so quickly, that maybe then ended up an hour later going, Oh, my gosh, how did I just get here? I just was trying to get the soccer equipment. But now we are in an all out, like nasty gramme warfare, as I call it. So it's understanding even if you are in the middle of the spiral, as soon as you realise, oh, my gosh, here I am. You stop and you pause. Because it's making the choice it making the decision? How do I want to show up, even if you're not happy with what you just did? That's okay. You can change and you can communicate differently, and part of communicating differently. Again, it's not that you have to do it perfectly. But as soon as you realise you're adding more mass for yourself to clean up later, kept taking, rolling, we'll get into the like, we keep shovelling ourselves deeper and deeper, and deeper into it, put down the shovel, put down the phone stop, or we really have to learn how am I showing up here? Because you want to show up in a way that we're influencing people no matter what we're doing. And so we want to influence in a positive direction. It's like the same with our kids. I mean, how many of us, we try so hard to be patient, be patient, be patient, and that our kids do something and we lose it on them? Well, we have to look at what is happening before that, during that and after that, and how can we show up differently. And so I think tangibly, it's really learning how to stop and decide what's happening. What do I have control over? And how do I want to show up? And how can I do that? And I think as it relates to the other co parent, and that the communication, it's learning how to have better listening skill, that cycle that I was talking about the sort of the blame cycle, they say the first act of war is defence. So as soon as you defend, you're in it, and so it's really stopping even before you get there and deciding how do I want to show up for this? That other co parent is going to throw hot potatoes here. Do you remember that game from kindergarten through the hot potato? I always tell clients like what do we have to do so that You don't reach out and pick up the potato, they are going to love them at you potentially, especially if it's a contentious situation. But it's your responsibility not to pick it up. And so what do we need to do for you to get you strong enough, clear enough, and feel a capable to not pick it up? Because that's really the start of different communication is not engaging, just because they say something does not mean you have to respond. Just because they want to respond does not mean you have to get them on. And it's really about you deciding what will I communicate about? And what won't I? What is necessary? And what isn't? What is off the table? And what's okay, so that you can start to put some parameters around this so that you can feel comfortable knowing how to respond versus just having to react? Does that make sense?

Kristen

Yes. So in that scenario, you would recommend not responding back? Again,

Mikki

it's not necessary, like this scenario you threw out

Kristen

there? What would you do? Like if he says, starts blaming you? How would you handle that?

Mikki

I would stop. And I would say, I'm not going to engage in disrespectful or I'm not going to get into whatever your wording is, right? Like, it's really deciding, like, I will talk about this, when we can both be respectful. Maybe that's a good way to say it, I'm not going to continue this conversation, let me know when you're ready to tell me about the soccer equipment, and you leave, and they're going to continue the text, they're going to continue sending them and you just don't respond. Many people will disagree with me on this. And they do. I have clients all the time saying, Well, if I don't say anything they're winning, it's always this winning. And I understand that. But at what cost? If it's so hard for you, and you get so riled up trying to get information about the soccer equipment? How is that going to help anybody? So maybe you just drop it off, or you drive over there and get your kid and you grab it? and off you go? Oftentimes, I'll say to clients, well, what's the easiest thing for you to do? Well, the easiest thing to do might just be do it yourself. And if that serves you, and that keeps you out of this cycle, why not? These are the questions that you have to start to ask yourself, because if the why not is because they're going to win, I don't know. I'd rather have my peace of mind all day, every day than winning some invisible battle. And so

Unknown Speaker

there's no litter,

Mikki

there's no winner. And that's where we have to really start to get clear about what game Am I playing here, especially when it comes to these sort of toxic cycles. And listen, if you've divorced this person, it's likely because there was something not great happening, right? And likely, they know exactly where your buttons are, they know exactly how to pull you in. And they know exactly how to get you upset. So it's your responsibility not to engage in that. It's your responsibility. It's not theirs for triggering you. It's really about learning. And this isn't to blame you. And I'm not saying this to say like you're the problem, I find it really empowering to know that I have complete control over my experience and the situation. As soon as I can become aware and understand what's happening. Well, then I get to start to decide what's going to happen next. And that to me, is a beautiful place to be and to start to learn from. And I heard this and it's great for children, but I think it's great for CO parents to is, especially teenagers, when they're talking to you. And there's so much happening as moms, we just want to pick that right? We just want to like do everything to make it go away for them. But I've learned that the most helpful thing we can do is actually just listen so that we can give them exactly what they're saying, in a headline version. So summarise everything they've said into one sentence. So we sort of boil it down into this is what I'm hearing you say this happened, it made you feel this way. You're feeling that? Am I correct? It's sort of like when we start to listen, to be able to summarise and capture it so that we know we're understanding. It takes us out of needing to change or fix or control and we can focus on just listening. And I think the same thing happens sometimes with the other co parent to be able to say I can see that you're really frustrated about that. Can we talk about this later at a time we can both discuss it or sort of trying to find proactive ways but first and foremost not engaging in something that you're not comfortable engaging

Kristen

for your own mental emotional well being. Yeah, sometimes you have to go okay, what's in the best interest of the kids. Every decision is based on the best interest of the kids even if you don't agree with it or you think it's unfair, or you don't want them to win the kids or what miss out if we start focusing on what the other parent is or isn't doing. And when I also tell clients is that child in that parent have a relationship that you have no control over, they will have to reconcile that relationship at whatever point in their life. What do you say to people that are married, or in a relationship, they're not separated that do not agree on parenting, because this is such an issue where sellin was to lay down a consequence, and maybe have a punishment, so to speak. And the other parents like, I don't think that's effective. I think that's gonna work. What do you say to those folks that are not on the same page? In terms of philosophy?

Mikki

Yeah, I feel you. And it's, this is ninja level parenting at this point, right? Because it is really, really challenging. And it's the exact right time again, to start to stop and come back to what is important to me. And where I started with all of my clients is starting to look at creating a vision for their life and their values. Because we have to understand what matters to you, and why does it matter? This sounds simplistic, but what I believe it does is create almost like a funnel system, so that when we are living from our values, and we are working towards the vision that we have for ourselves, it helps us sort of figure out what do I have to deal with and what don't I, and this comes into this conversation because we all hold different values. And it's about learning how to respect other people's and also you getting to live by yours. So I'll give you an example. The mom at school, but not do cell phones, I was the wait till eight petition, I literally made a petition, okay, like with a couple other moms. And we were in the parking lot. We were going for it, we were trying so hard. And luckily, my axe was on board. He's pretty amenable to that kind of stuff. So I was like, All right, no, no cell phone, my partner's ex wife. And that whole side didn't share the same value that I did. So sure enough, we get to a point in time where they're all this is given a cell phone, and it's done in a way, it was a surprise, a birthday gift. Looking back, the surprise was necessary because I'm the woman petitioning in the parking lot. Oh, there was going to be some pushback here. So long story short, I held firm. And I said, I hold the value that no cell phones, no cell phones for the children allowed in the house. And my son who was the same age was not getting a cell phone. Everything was going along swimmingly, in my opinion, because we weren't having the issue. until about six, four to five months later, my son said, Mom, why can't I have a cell phone? Because he has a cell phone? I gave him my schpeel all the spiel of here's all the reasons Oh, well, you know, he just came out with another report, honey, like, let's read it together, I rolling for this poor child. And he looked at me and he goes, I get it, you just don't trust me. And it hit me that as much as I was holding on to this ideal that I had, he was taking away a different message from it. And for him, he was taking away the message that I can't be trusted. So one of my values is trust, really building trust. And so I had to really stop and do a lot of work around what's more important to me, in this given situation, the cellphone, or my son, knowing that I trust him. And so for us, it looked like having to shift and we did, we got him one. I mean, I went full force in that direction, because that's who I am. But it was that reminder that I hold my values. And those values are going to help guide me in tough situation. And I think it's important for all of us to have these. And so if you're married, divorced, you can have those conversations around, what are your values, what's most important to you? What's most important to me, and finding the commonality between them, because there's got to be some common shared vision, done shared value. And I know after divorce or in when different styles are different when it feels like there's nothing that's our brain saying it's black or white, it's this or that, and we've got to get to a place of okay, what do we agree on? Even if the only thing you agree on if that we both love your children? That's still something and you start from there.

Kristen

I liked the values conversation. Let's say someone has I'm just throwing these out there and and about value. Someone says, I value hard work. And I feel a kid is lazy. So I've had parents come up with this. Yeah. So I think we need to have chores, and there's consequences if they don't do the chores. And the other parent says that they can be hard working in different ways or working at school, having good grades, and so were the hard working Kalai what would you say to that because somebody will say Well, we both value hard work, isn't both don't want our kids to be quote unquote lazy Because I'm hearing this across the board with parents, they feel like their kids lazy.

Mikki

This is a whole topic that I didn't do itself. But I can get a great opportunity to again, sort of step back from the initial needing it to be fixed right now, the initial like, we have to have this conversation and then have an outcome have a decision. Sometimes, the outcome is no decision. Sometimes it's okay, we need more space to discuss this, as parents, if you guys are both having this conversation, the last thing you want to do is put your kid in the middle of it, I always say that the approach that works best is to have your child centre, they're the sun, we're the planets that revolve around the sun. But we don't want to get into a tug of war about the kid, when we can look at it from that child centred approach, it might look like, we need to actually have more conversation around that, we actually need to find some compromise before we bring any of these things, any of these consequences or chores or anything to the kid. And it's being willing to be uncomfortable. It's being willing to be uncomfortable when you guys don't agree. But again, listening to understand, what's the commonality? What do we both share here? What is it that we both want? wildly, you just want your kid to be like a stable functioning adult? Okay, then how are we going to share in that to move them forward? A lot of times we get lost in the weeds of wanting these things to happen. And we've got to step back and look at the big picture. And then how do we come at it? Because the last thing I'll say on it is the reminder that you are always 24/7 365, the living, breathing example of what it looks like to be our cases, a woman, a mom, an x, a wife, a sister, whatever. And so we lead by example. And then we do this with the other co parent to how are you showing up? Are you showing up in a way to get what you want back? Because whatever you're putting out is what's going to come back? Are you doing that? And how can you find more mutual ways to figure out the solution versus just focusing on the problem, we've got to learn to be solutions focused, even when it's not the hardest time that pair thing is when you do a and then you do B and you expect it to happen. But sometimes it's just not that linear. And we have to be a little bit more creative and a little bit more curious around how we can shift around.

Kristen

Yes, and I think identifying your own fear around whether you're co parenting or you're in a marriage where you have maybe different perspectives based on your own childhoods. We're drives the train a lot of times in our decision making, like we don't want our kid being a bum on the street, and contributory or living in our basement. And so we fear that that's gonna happen. And then we are reactive to that narrative in our mind. And that's what we're functioning from, in so many ways. And just noticing the fear. People call it anxiety, notice that start tending to that start soothing, that maybe journaling about it going to therapy over it. It's essential as a parent, because it's a younger part of you. And we're worried about what other people think that yeah, a huge part of why we make decisions and a lot of ways because we don't want to look bad or we don't want to look like we're the bad parent, to whomever, our parents or in laws, it doesn't matter the neighbour. Yeah,

Mikki

no, no, absolutely. And Maggie, you know, that sort of steps into the people pleasing conversation, which is a whole nother topic, right? But so many of us are, again, so concerned unconsciously, with how we're going to be perceived, what's going to happen. It's like, I always like to ask clients, the first question is to ask yourself, what timezone you're in? Are you in the past? Are you in the future? Or are you in the present, because all of your power lies in the present moment, you can do nothing about the past, you knew nothing about the future. Worry is just a prayer for chaos. So we've got to get out of that and get into the present moment. And that's where really stopping and pausing when you're triggered when you're in fear, when you're overwhelmed, to stop and pause and to say, Okay, can I call my nervous system? can I calm myself down, to figure out what's really going on here? And that's where I think to your point, having somebody there to help you through those things is so crucial, because we're not met. And oftentimes the people that love us the most, don't give us the best advice. They just want us to be happy or feel better about them. They Oh yeah, he's the worst he's doing this. You can't take back. You need to do this. The need to speak up you need to tell them and it makes you it does

Mikki

not and square. Yeah. And so really stopping to be able to look inward before you do anything outward. And ask yourself, what do you want your child to do? Do you want your child to ask everyone in the playground? Should I do that? Or should I not do that? Or do you want him to have to wait to get to the party? Should I do drugs? Or should I not do drugs? No, you want to teach them to look inward? And answer their own question. And so that's your job to start doing that, answer your own questions and move from there. And when you need support you

get absolutely

Mikki

when you need help you get help, but it's really learning how to answer your own question first,

Kristen

and then go on those surveys. Call it the survey says, Thank you so much for your wisdom, your energy, your heart. Where can people I think maybe if they want to learn more about maybe how to work with you? Yeah,

Mikki

I'm happy to share I have a conscious co parenting masterclass, which is like short, 20 minutes just gives you sort of these three steps in a little bit more detail. So that's a great place to learn a little bit more about what I do, but I'm on the Instagram, and it's just at Mickey Gardner. My name is M as in Mary I KK I Gardner, my website is the same. And I'm excited that this October my new book is coming out. And so I am so beyond excited to share that with the world. So I would love to share those links. But that'll be coming back out in October.

Kristen

Fantastic. Congratulations. Can you share the title of the book? Or is it for a secret reveal?

Mikki

Oh no. It's the people pleasers guide to co parenting. Wow.

Kristen

Oh, I love the title. The PDF was guide to co parenting. Well, that wraps it when it comes out. Yeah, that is gonna be such a great title. I love that title.

Mikki

Oh, thank you. I'm super excited because as a recovering people pleaser just what we were just talking about. There's so many nuances and we're just trying to be good parents, good moms, good partners, good all the things. And then a lot of times we're just shooting ourselves in the foot. And so learning how to step out of that and learning how to just co parenting. Wow. And parent well is such a gift. Oh, congratulations,

Kristen

Mikki Thank you for being on the chapter podcast. Go grab her book when it comes out in October. And thanks everyone for tuning in. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoy this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share it with a friend or family member. For more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com. Thanks and have a great day.