Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe. Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast My heart is exploding with gratitude that you're here with me, you're taking the time to look within yourself, get curious, hold space for yourself to do some deeper work. And it first starts with awareness. So I like to bring you episodes that will get you thinking, exploring your own family history, helping you connect dots and then practical application on how to work on it. So relationships are an essential part of life. How do we have health relationships? What did you see in your parents or relationships? What have you taken on that you really want to work on and change? What makes relationships last? And what are the common disagreements or fights that couples get into? And then how do we work through them? What are the patterns we bring to the table. We're going to unpack all of that today. And I'm excited to share this episode with you if you want assistance. I have a free guide free journal, if you will, at kristendboice.com. forward slash free resources, we will link that in the show notes. So you don't have to stop your car. You can just do that when you get home. And you'll want to jump on the mailing list is I have lots of valuable resources to share with you. And this guest is really important because they've done so much in terms of writing books on relationships and trying to create more conversation around how to make relationships work. So let me introduce you to Stan Tatkin He is a doctorate. He has his doctorate, and MFT clinician, author, researcher, pact developer, that's pa C T and co founder of the pact Institute. Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA. He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads the pact programmes in the US and internationally. He is the author of we do wired for Love Your Brain on love relationships, our ex wired for dating, but every therapist ought to know and co author of Love and War and intimate relationships and newly released and each other's care. We talk a little bit about each other's care because there's 14 chapters that break down the most common relationship issues and how to work through them. So if you want to grab a book, you can grab any of these resources, we really dive into breakdown and relationships, how to create more effective communication. So if you are in any type of relationship, listen to it, share it with your partner and have a conversation. Let's change the dialogue on what relationships are and are not. Because we have this idea of what we think relationships are. They're like fantasies, like we're never going to fight we're never gonna have any arguments. It's just simply not the reality. So let's dispel all these myths. Let's talk about how to make them work. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Stan enjoy. Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast. I am delighted that you are here with us today for this very important episode. As you know, I'm a marriage and family therapist and I believe in couples therapy. Two months into dating if everybody doesn't know the story, my husband said I think I love you. And I said how about going to premarital counselling? And he's like, Okay, so I've been a big proponent of couples work in every form or fashion because I believe that if we can take a look within we're self aware. We can recognise our patterns, we can explore our childhoods, we can make a huge difference for generations to come. So my guest today is a pioneer in couples work. And I'm thrilled to have him on the podcast. Stan, welcome to the close the chapter podcast.

Dr. Stan

Thank you for having me, Kristen. Yes.

Kristen

So I would love for you to tell the listeners a little bit about your journey into this work and writing your books.

Dr. Stan

Oh boy, that's a big story. Well, how far back do you want me to go?

Kristen

Hey, wherever how far back you want to go. I say go for it. And I

Dr. Stan

started off in show business with my family and family was a show business family in music. So I was a musician and professional musician for my hair. life until I was around 26. And then I fell into this work and never looked back. I've been doing it ever since and lol so happy but I am. So I very much into prevention work. I studied babies for a while, and young children then children and babies, infants and their caregivers. And so I wanted to do prevention. And so when you said premarital, that is the thing that makes me the happiest, because the only way that I can actually help children very young children is to work with the couple system. Since I couldn't get enough infant caregiver pairs to come into my office. This was the next best thing. And so that's how I ended up with couples.

Kristen

Fascinating. I'm fascinated that you are in music.

Dr. Stan

Yes, I got it out of my system very young. I still love music. And I still love all of that. I bring it kind of into my practice, because I think musically, and that helps me a lot in dealing with two person systems, because there's a lot of sound and music and beat structure.

Kristen

And font trustee I never thought about it. Yeah, like this new perspective. How did you get into couples, like you started with kind of this pre preventative with babies, since you're working with the parents is that how it led into couples work?

Dr. Stan

Well, I also went through a divorce. And so at the time, the apex of my learning and of neuroscience, infant brain development, I was particularly interested and the autonomic system as that was implicated in my divorce in my marriage to solution. And so I researched and studied these areas. And then when I started working with couples, my research involved using digital video and frame analysis to watch micro expressions, micro movements, basically watching the animals in front of me interact. And we started to find lots of markers that told us about attachment told us about arousal regulation problems, really helped us understand how partners operate in real time under stress under pressure, and still work that way. Still video, people are under pressure to see what leaks out to see what they can and cannot do in the social emotional realm. And turns out that we're not just looking at a theology, actually not pathology, we're looking at the human condition, finding that what faces couples in terms of problems, is the same thing that has faced our species since the beginning of our time on planet. So it's a people problem. Like to say it's something else, but it isn't. We're lovely animals, when we're happy, and we're terrible, horrible ones are not in very, very particular ways. And that's what the research bears out.

Kristen

It's interesting with the facial expressions, because they are so pivotal when we're infants, our parents facial expressions with the still baby research, if anybody isn't familiar with that, where I've tronics work, yes. And it's fascinating if the mother goes flat, and the baby's trying to get mother's attention, the distress, the infant experiences, and imprints and the nervous system. And now we are wired to look at those nuances of an eyebrow lift of a frown of what did you find with couples as at transit with facial expressions? I'd be curious.

Dr. Stan

Well, the same thing was we find with babies were just babies barely grown up. And so with the still face, what was being studied is when the parent drops, any kind of signalling in the face, they remain completely flat, still, the baby will get distressed. Now this is with a good parent, right? This is with a good parent with a parent that always stills their face, the baby doesn't react, because it's already acclimated to the non response. But bees, babies tend to be depressed. So there are certain things we see in infants that are natural, and that get either snuffed out trained out worse things get trained into them, depending on the culture. They're born into the family culture, the parenting culture. And a lot of this is nature repeating itself. It's not pathology. It is an adaptation that's learned over generations on whether the relationship is central, or the self is central in some way. And insecure systems itself is more important than the relationship. And that gets communicated out through 1000s of interactions, and babies adapt to that. And if it's on the distancing side of the spectrum, these babies become distancing and more avoidant as they grow. If it's on the clinging spectrum side of insecurity, because the self comes first in terms of take care of me take care of me Mommy, Daddy, I'm drunk. I'm depressed not well. On then these children become me. blunt as they grow into adulthood and angry, resistant. So this is not rocket science becomes very understandable when you see it in action, and it happens very, very early.

Kristen

And then how do you see this start playing out pretty quickly with couples that come into your office?

Dr. Stan

Well, you can see it in their interactions, because they'll one of the things that I say in my latest book, and each other's care, which I wrote during the pandemic, is they're basically two reasons why unions in a free society among equals will fail eventually. One is that there's no structure, there's no organised culture. And there's no shared purpose or shared vision as to why we should do this thing other than feeling. So that's a big problem. And that has to be solved. The other one is harder. And that is the manner in which you and I will interact when one of us is under stress, that becomes a really big problem for us human primates. Because in a dyad, two person system, the only thing that will work is a team, I have to consider you at the same time, I'm considering myself, or I will look unfriendly to you. Here's the problem. In couples, we're not oriented this way. And so we tend to put ourselves first. And that's war. That begins to be a problem in a union of equals, right, put us under stress, and both of us will start to revert to a one person system of I, me and my, and that is also war. So we have to understand the nature of being human, and how it works. For some people, it's an easy transition and orientation. For other people. It's a pill all the way,

Kristen

oftentimes, it's to children in my office, they're really stuck in their unmet needs from childhood, and they're reaching to this partner to fill those needs. So almost like a desperation of thirst, that they weren't quenched with the partner.

Dr. Stan

Right? And generally, you don't go into business with someone because you fell in love with them, and you're hoping that they'll fulfil your childhood needs. Right? That's, that would be folly, not for that you're there to make money. Are you there to be famous? Are you there to win? Are you there to survive, but couples not so much, we're there because we love each other. Because we're attracted to each other because we were put together and arranged marriage, whatever. So it's the only union without a mission or purpose other than emotion. And that's why they generally don't last anywhere on the planet for very long, where they could last but not half. Because they're missing that single idea of we have to operate on agreed upon principles that are purpose driven, not feeling driven, or we will be threatening to each other.

Kristen

How much story making like if I see a facial expression in my partner, and then I make up a story about what you're feeling? What you're thinking about me. And I run with that story? I believe it's true. I mean, you gave me this look, and you look disgusted with me. And you look angry. And now I'm running with that story. How much of that component? Do you feel like impacts couples connection?

Dr. Stan

It happens all the time with every human being on this planet. This is what we do. We're mostly automatic at any given point. And we'll use pattern recognition, which is lightning fast to assess safety and danger. Now that's based on memory. So I've seen that discuss look before and it was aimed at me and you're looking like you're aiming at me. Rather than ask you to check the information, a data to see if I'm even close to that. I assume I'm in danger. And I shoot first and ask questions later advanced? Why course such difficult animals because of this. And so the way around that is to check you look disgusted at me. Now, part of the rules of collaboration cooperation, is that you're not supposed to say no, I didn't for two reasons. One is that you can know what your face did. I'll be the judge of that. And secondly, you're not in my body. So doesn't matter what you think it matters, that what I think and if our relationship is most important, you got to care about it, if our relationship isn't most important, and your most important, watch out. Okay, so this is the messiness of our species. This is the audit errors that our brain makes naturally, because of energy conservation, we do the least amount unnecessary. And so if I can judge you or judge your face, your vocal tone, your movements, that phrase you use, because I think I'm in danger, I will do it. And I will do it quickly because our threat systems are quite acute, as is our survival instinct. And it's not personal, but it is something we'll act on. And that's something we have to learn how to work with.

Kristen

Okay, so let's take that we take the bridge here to the 14 chapters in your book, and your issue is down like the most common issues that couples have, like you synthesised, here's the 14 issues.

Dr. Stan

Those are the ones that I see mostly in my clinic that I had time for to really, but hopefully, then you understand that it's not the issue. It's not the complaints. It's the manner in which people are dealing with. Yep, go

Kristen

ahead. Okay. So when you think, what are the top three complaints do you feel like you see most often in couples,

Dr. Stan

and marriages, the five are money, time message, sex, and kids, but it can be religion can be stepchildren, it can be all sorts of stuff, I would say, I get a lot of betrayals, and the betrayal is always in the area of information that's not being shared properly or at all. So the lack of free flow of shared information, transparency is probably at the top of the list as the most troublesome. And that can happen across any of those complaint areas, right? I'm just not forthright, not telling you the truth. I'm not giving information that you must have. I'm allowing you to discover it yourself. And that causes a huge trust problem. So that's really big. Sex is very misunderstood and often used as a area that actually involves other broader areas of trust and arousal, regulation, and attachment, all sorts of other things. But sex and all its forms. Not enough too much. I don't like the way you have sex and a light, your ideas, all of that performance, libido. That's another really big one. And money, equity, whether we're sharing in the equity of this relationship, whether who has power, who has authority? Those are the I think the real big ones that I see mostly, what about you,

Kristen

I would say for sure that withholding of information and not communicating or really packaging up what you're saying not sharing things, I think betrayal and truth telling is a huge, huge issue because I feel like those are symptoms of a deeper the deeper issue. So what are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Stan

You shared information, I believe is actually the greatest commodity, and a couple system or any Union, where they're leading shins where other people depend on him. So if a couple in my view, is where I placed them, if the couple is the centre of the universe, around which all other objects orbit, and they are the leaders did generals, the bosses, the ones who are in charge of everyone and everything, the left and right hand have to know the same thing where they cannot do business, they cannot raise children, they cannot do anything. Because the information shared information is essential. But also, if you and I are in the foxhole together, and we're life partners in Word, the time travellers word that constancy you and I bade all the way ride or die, why wouldn't I tell you everything? What's the point of my not doing that you're the only person in the world I'm trusting with my life, hopefully. So a lot of this is an attitudinal issue of orienting towards a two person psychological system of wheat and us, which we would get right away. If our inner lakes were bound by somebody. And middle of the night, we couldn't do anything without moving together. That is what a two person system is. It's not codependency it's inter dependency to autonomous individuals with the same things to gain same things to lose, that is different than codependency, only one of us has something more to lose, and the other, right, and that's not gonna work. So this is the setting that we're trying to orient people if they join the military, or if they were police car partners, or if they were in a dance troupe or an acting troupe, they would learn right away, you could get with the programme and be a team, team player, or you're out, because everybody else wants to win. So the therapists have to enforce this culture, because the greater culture does it with couples at all. And so there has to be some seriousness. This is a matter of life and death, actually, partners are actually putting their lives in each other's hands if they think about it, right? And that it's really them against the world as they live in a very dangerous, opportunistic and non caring environment, no matter what we think. So they have to alter their agreements. That's all they've got, or they're no better off together than they would be out in the wild. It's a reality issue.

Kristen

Yes. I'm wondering too, here's a couple of thoughts on it. We grow up weren't allowed to say what was potentially and a lot of homes what our truth was, we even like placate or we mom and sister foes adult, tell him I'm home. Mom's right there and you're telling the person Mom's not home? Even these little details like we weren't allowed to be transparent. And so they come into these marriages that I'm telling them be transparent and are looking at me like regional artists scary. They're gonna get mad. They're gonna reject. They're gonna get angry at me. They look at me like that is the scariest thing I've asked them to do to be transparent and tell the other person how they feel.

Dr. Stan

Or you'll ruin my gig. I want to continue to do what I want. And if I can do it under the radar, I will. So yeah, there are all sorts of reasons why we learn not to do this. And that's where secure functioning, which is something I write about secure functioning, is basically growing up, it means that you and I are going to create the culture we want not the ones we brought up in by the gods, right? Our parents being the gods. So you have they're bigger than life, we have no choice in that. So let's build this consciously together to form with what we want today. What do we think is right? What do we think is best? What do we think is good. And let's place the bar as high as we want. And do it even if we don't feel like it. That is a secure function, you purpose centred relationship? We do we decide what's best, even though it will be the hardest thing to do when it comes time to pay up. As opposed to what's the easiest thing, which is what we all did, let's say you

Kristen

have someone that has kind of this growth mindset, they're working towards becoming more secure with themselves, they want to put in the work and the relationship. And you've got kind of one person that says, I don't see a problem. They're just kind of stuck. Maybe they're in their defences protector parts, and we're just not making any movement. What do you do with those couples,

Dr. Stan

from the sound of it, we call those people islands. And nice way of saying and avoidant, somebody from the distancing group would say that I don't see anything wrong, everything's perfectly fine with me, the only problem is my partner as well. So that's somebody who sees things from the distancing end of the spectrum. And usually, people like that come from neglect, not material neglect, but on an attachment level in terms of attachment values, I never got those things. So I don't know what I'm missing, you seem to be very needy seem to have it issues because I'm happy as a clam. Well, in my world, I never had any of those things you expect. So what's your problem, I'm operating from a place of never having something I can't compare and contrast. So I see the world quite differently in my life and relationship quite differently. So with someone like that, if you want to be secure functioning, that's not going to be the droids you're looking for. You could be with someone who's an island, but is self aware and understands that being an island is a problem for themselves, not just for a partner, that's somebody you want to be they want to do something that is fully collaborative and cooperative, a team sport like relationship, then they're good. They're just going to, you're going to have to hold each other to things like this. But somebody who doesn't see a problem at all, is not going to work, because they're never going to agree to the things that you're wanting because they just don't have a need for it.

Kristen

Yes, you have a different way of thinking the relationship and different ones and needs. Can you tell pretty quickly, when you're working with a couple I know got my insight I can tell within I can't remember the quick that he can tell that a couple isn't going to make it. Do you have that same sense?

Dr. Stan

Where do you march because I've been doing this for a long time. But I've been surprised. Many times there have been people I thought, Oh my God, what did I get myself into here with them, and they've done very well. And other people, I thought, Oh, you guys are great, you're Natty, and you're gonna do really well. And then I find out now they're not going to the lofty goal of though it's worthwhile is secure functioning requires the ability to tolerate pain. So that rules a lot of people out, taking a punch without punching back, being able to tolerate shame and humility, because that's part of a team, right? I can't, it's not a solo sport. It's a team sport. Therefore, I have to understand when I've caused a problem and repair it without qualification, I have to be able to recognise losses and be able to grieve that rules lot of people out, and then I have to be able to play well with others. And so we're talking of milestones that have to be taken care of, as well as a desire to do something like this. Not everybody does. And that's fine. That's fine. So we're talking about a very particular way of organising and unionising that in our history on the planet we know will work as long as partners are constantly co creating the structure that they're making a relationship that they call a relationship which is made up in our heads that they are constantly playing according to what's good for me and good for you. Has to be good for me and good for you or it will not pass. Every decision you and I make is made together by get each other on board or we don't move until we do no threats, no sticks, whips, all carrots all, you know bargaining and negotiating as equal partners would. It's a career which I think pay is out in ways that people only doing it well realise it's just hard to do. But then I think anything worthwhile is hard.

Kristen

Yes, it's hard to for people to break patterns. I mean, we all are creatures of habit, we have patterns that are pretty ingrained. How do you work with couples to begin to recognise their own patterns become more self aware, so they can move towards feeling more secure within themselves?

Dr. Stan

Well, the beauty of that is that it's not up to me, this is the couple this is their gig, right? They design it, they decide what's right, what's good, what's best, I am there to make sure they do it correctly, and that they're telling the truth. They're not just doing this because they're afraid of loss, right? They're doing this because they're both in charge of this thing. So you may not like something I do a pattern I do, somebody else wouldn't be bothered, but you are bothered by it. That's all that matters. So I have an A new secrecy that you find to be particularly off putting or offensive, I should care about that as I go to want you to care about what you do. Because all people are basically irritating, annoying pain in the ass, a burden and ultimately disappointing all people, including me, that's normal. So how are we going to deal with that? Okay, what I do is causing a problem, I don't want it repeating, because that will end up being threatening to you. And I'll have a bigger problem. So I give you permission, every time I do this thing, which I'm obviously doing without thinking. So habit, or it's automatic, I give you permission to cue me, prompt me remind me and I pledge right now, I will yield, cooperate without pushback, rolling my eyes or doing anything obnoxious. That's called a guardrail. And that's how we keep the peace. That's all I need. Because I'm going to want you to do the same. Because we're committed to making this relationship work. And we're taking off the table, anything that interrupts our discourse or ability to make things, create things, solve problems, and handle all the things that need handling around us. So that's the spirit of what we're doing. But somebody else might not find this annoying, they'll find something else. But it's not a problem. Because I want this relationship to be as easy as it can be. So I'm willing to do my part that bothers you done,

Kristen

radical ownership of it, after the defensiveness and the justification for why you do it,

Dr. Stan

that holds everything up. And that's a tar pit that people get into. That's a waste of our time. You and I are dedicated to work on problems, we don't work on each other, because that's war. That's a hard thing to do, or not to do. And we tend to want to work on each other, we tend to build narratives that are in our interests only. And so if you rally me up, you're the enemy. And I'm going to do whatever I can to take care of my interests only. And you will do the same. So we have to watch out for that, because that will knock up the works. Yeah, so

Kristen

it's a couple a few say, okay, I'd cue me, if I start doing that again. And the other the partner goes, ooh, I don't want to cue you, because you're gonna get mad at me, you're gonna get upset with me. I don't want to be your parent. I've heard many Oh, you're

Dr. Stan

not parent, you're my boss, because I say so I'm your boss, because you say so. We're two generals, we have to do this. Otherwise, we can't run anything. We can't run anything. This is not personal. This is about discourse. This is about taking things off the table that ruin discourse, or harmony or ability to be allies. The war cannot be in our own foxhole. Now, I'm not a war person. I'm not even a military person. I don't know where I come up with this. There's so many metaphors that have to do with this. I try to come up with other ones that aren't not so violent and more like, but it does its trick. This is a potato sack race. We want to win. We can't argue we have to move together collaboratively and cooperatively because we both want to win, therefore we have to work together or we don't get there, period. That's it. That's the reality,

Kristen

that she'll just keep doing the same thing without any change. That's what I've tried to tell if we keep doing the same thing. And we're not doing anything different outside of the therapeutic session, you're going to get the same results.

Dr. Stan

Yeah, we're just not going to work together. And what's the point of that? That's why I say it's a team sport, not a solo sport. So people have to actually learn it's a higher level actually, of personal moral reasoning. I have to keep your interests in mind at the same time I'm pressing, wishing for my interests, or I get nothing. Just think about that. That is true. Every negotiator. If I don't take care of your interests, fears, concerns about me. At the same time, I'm trying to sell you on something I want. I'll get none. That's just the truth. Because I'm only thinking of myself. That's not how this works. And so it really ups the level of play here that I can't afford to just think of myself. That will come back at me on because no bad deed goes on. So everything I do to you affects you. It's my response. escalated, make sure that you're okay at all times or I will pay for

Kristen

the what do you deal with defensiveness like someone that's super defensive? And any feedback, any kind of pointing out, they get bristly, I mean their inner child psych or wants to switch blame the other person. What do you do with the defensiveness?

Dr. Stan

So what a couple can do is what most people don't do but should do, instead of looking where we disagree, and where we are different, that's a built in feature to our species, xenophobia, other ism. I don't like you because you disagree, you're different than me, right? Well, we can always find that. The trick is, where are we the same? And where do we agree? So I might say to you, do we want our relationship to be one where we can give each other feedback? Or should we keep that feedback to ourselves? And never say anything? Therefore, neither of us ever improves? Or what should we have? What would be the best thing for us? Do we give each other feedback or no feedback? Well, okay, we'll both agree we give each other feedback without getting to the problem of manna yet. So we both want feedback. Now, how do you want your feedback, and here's how I want money that can be arranged. So now we legislate, how we're going to do things, and this is being formed as we go. So that we do it in a way that is the easiest and most efficient on but also sensitive to each other. But it must be done. Do we give feedback, even if we're afraid that the other person won't like it? Since this is a purpose centred principle? The answer has to be yes. Otherwise, we're back to zero again, we're back to where we were. So purpose centre principles are based on what we both decide is the best or right or good thing to do. Even though it could be the hardest, but we both agree it has to be done. That's how I want people to think. So if you and I decide, we want affection, appreciation, admiration, romance throughout every day, we want that to go out every day. And we've worked all the other details out. Now the question is, do we do it when we're mad at each other? The answer has to be it's, do we do we hate each other? The answer has to be yes. In all cases, it must happen. I could go up to kiss you and tell you you're beautiful. I love you. And I hate your guts right now. And I want to punch your face. But I and Tory, that'll work.

Kristen

So counterintuitive. people be like I don't want it to get near them when they're acting like a child or

Dr. Stan

odd doesn't matter. Because imagine we decide we're going to have family dinner and we're going to, you know, this is a must because we want to ritualize it otherwise it won't get done. We do it if we're in a bad mood. Yeah, we still have to do it. In all cases, that must happen. Otherwise, there's no reason for ritual. We're lazy animals, we do the least amount necessary, the least the least. And so we get what he paid for. Don't put much in and yeah, you're not gonna get paid. So that's why that's how you would deal with that. Where do we agree? I want apples. You want oranges? We fight? Let's be smarter than that. Do we both want fruit? Yeah. Cool. That can be arranged, not from. And so it's a higher level of thinking, Where are we the same? Where do we there's always a place. Always, people just have to know that they must look there. And not the other. The other is low hanging fruit.

Kristen

Yes, I feel like one of the key and central ingredients is this idea. We mentioned radical ownership, an open feedback loop. We know we have decades of research saying how important an open versus closed feedback loop is. And then you said the manner in which you deliver it. So the feedback. So let's talk a little bit about the manner in which you deliver the feedback.

Dr. Stan

The manner is everything. What we found is that it's never the subject matter. It's never the topic, the topic is the stressor, the stressor is the ghost in the machine, that when I'm under stress, there's a change in me. And I am more likely to operate as a one person psychological system under stress, which means it's non collaborative, and non cooperative. And you're going to react to that. So if I don't sink in a two person manner, I will communicate in in the manner in which I'm talking the word choice, my facial expression, my movements, everything that I am thinking only of me and not you. That's the matter I'm talking about it does not matter the subject, what repeats over and over again and we can prove this is the partners manner, which is what repeats, and this is every back and forth and every sequence will find someone is talking behaving in a non collaborative manner. And that forces compels the other person to do the same. So, that's that's pretty much it. And it happens at very fast speeds, which is why people have to be trained into this.

Kristen

I think it's important. I have also seen couples where one is so afraid to say how they feel they're, we're literally going around the mulberry bush and round them out. And I'm like, Okay, we need to lay in the planks, I have no idea what you're saying. And it frustrates the other partner, because they're like, Just say what you just say what you mean. But they're still afraid to like, say it. And they are not clear in what they're saying. How do you help someone in that situation?

Dr. Stan

What I will tell people is that if you approach with fear that appears threatening to your partner, so you're afraid, but you're telegraphing something that they should be afraid. So rather than go around the bush and be tangential, is to take the shortest distance, and that is, it really bother me what you did last night, full stop, and you keep doing it, it needs to stop. Now I let go the stage and let you respond. So that there isn't I'm not Jenning you up. This is a heart rate blood pressure issue. If I hold you too long, or if I don't get to the point where I bury the lead, I'm now dealing with a person who's ready to spring into action, and be aggressive because of this. So I telegraphed that, I did that. Just like telling you the minimal or too little information is just as annoying and frustrating. So too much information, too little information, information, that's irrelevant information that is untrue or incomplete. All of that is considered deceptive speech. And there are problems with that it's known collaborative.

Kristen

Starting, you always you never you, you constantly are doing this, the person automatically goes into defence because it's, maybe they do some always, but those are triggering words for people.

Dr. Stan

And there are certain people attachment styles that are known to use that language. Because for a reason, people should understand that when someone says always they mean too much. When they say never, they mean, too little, not enough. And if people just interpret that, then they can stay on the page. They can stay focused. But there's no such thing as always, and never is too little and too much. That's really what's being communicated.

Kristen

I liked the refrain, that's really helpful.

Dr. Stan

That's also probably true.

Kristen

It is it feels nervous system. One of the things I think we're not teaching people enough is how to tell the truth. Yes, I really do. I know that sounds basic, but I believe we're not teaching how to tell the truth. So where would you start with someone on how to tell the truth about what's really inside what's really going on.

Dr. Stan

So we have to unpack that. Because you may think I'm not telling the truth. I believe I am telling the truth. But I don't have a history of precision. I don't have a history of showing my work. I give you the end result of the math, but I don't tell you show you how I got to there. And that is the problem. I don't even know how I got there. So we have to really understand what is actually happening. It takes a lot of investigation, find out because truth is murky. And we're looking for the best version of the truth. So all sorts of things get in the way, my fear, fear of loss, my changing the narrative in my head to suit my interests, only my cherry picking what I remember, there are all sorts of things that happen not all of it is lying. Lying is really a deception is really a an intentional attempt to mislead, we're omit vital information outside of that are gonna be a lot of things going on where I don't even know how to say what's true, even about myself. And so a lot of this also is developmental and some of it may even have to do with capacity. So there's a lot going on with us humans, not all of it is intentional. Some of it actually is developmental and some of it may even be deficit. I never had been able to do that. I don't even know talking about yes. That's one of the things we discovered very early on, in looking at what people can and cannot do. Not all of us are able to do. The A lot of the heavy lifting socially emotionally in relationship, some of the heart where it doesn't work. Some of the software doesn't have properly, and it's not integrated, as well as another person. And so we can really make assumptions based on what it feels like and be wrong. From a science point of view. Most people aren't evil. There are some, most people aren't bad faith actors. Most people are like me just idiots, or making stupid mistakes or can't do something. And I don't even know I can't do it never could. So we're in an area here of development that no late person is going to understand. Because if I can't read your face properly, if I can't respond compassionately, empathically, because I don't understand how to do that exactly. I'm going to affect the safety and security of our relationship, you're going to feel threatened, you don't care why? Well, you're going to think I'm doing it purposely. But sometimes I'm not. So we're in a very interesting area here, where brilliant animals that also make things up. And also, like I said, use pattern recognition as a way of determining whether we're safe, we're not safe. But we don't think very hard about it. We don't use critical thinking during those times. And that's what leads to lawsuits and divorce and wars and a lot of things.

Kristen

There's so many pieces to this that I could keep going on and on. I have one last question.

Dr. Stan

The human mind is fascinating. It's just,

Kristen

I love it. I absolutely have a keen curiosity about it. That keeps me just feeling alive. So I love this conversation. The last question I have, do you feel like affairs or attachment issues, really all attachment issues,

Dr. Stan

I've got to be careful, because it's not the only thing. But there are reasons why islands have affairs and they're more predicted, we can predict certain things and the the affair and the murder and the suicide area, we can predict things in libido area based on Attachment, what's going to happen. So a lot of that is really kind of cool. Both anybody can have an affair. Usually, it is systemic, there's something in the relationship structure that the CO created that allows for something to happen like that. That isn't to blame anybody. But it's to blame both of him for creating a structure where opportunism can flourish. Because we are basically opportunistic animals, if I can get away with it, I will. So that has to be planned for folks always plan for your devils don't plan for your angels. If you don't think you're capable of being a devil, you're not safe. Bar. And so that's what you have to do. And you have to build a better boat to manage this relationship to protect each other from each other. But affairs can get into a lot of stuff going all the way back to early childhood, and parents and so on. Much of the time again, it has to do with secrecy and flying under the radar is the main culprit.

Kristen

Yes. Where if people want to know more about islands, they want to know more about these dynamics and how to build more connection, more collaboration, where what are the best resources you have for them?

Dr. Stan

Well, if people want to read the latest book, which I think is cool, it was written during the pandemic, when I was really full up on people's complaints, read in each other's care. It's a really good book that will give you an idea how to work together. If you want to learn about islands anchors and waves are my wired for love. The second edition is coming out in 2014 and your brain on love which is direct to audio with me speaking those to really focus on attachment. Predominantly, we do a little bit does it and we do. But in the latest book, I'm not covering that as much at all are the science of covering conflicts conflict management structure. So and that's really it strongly there. And if people want to reach me, go to the pact institute.com That's the PA ct institute.com. We do trainings for mental health professionals around the world online now. And we do couples retreats, what do we want in Portugal, it's a five star retreat. You guys should come. It's amazing. Are there they're really good. They're really good retreats. They're like time of life once in a lifetime kind of think but we also do couple workshops online too. And you can find me there too.

Kristen

I've been to the website. It's fabulous. You've got lots of resources, so I encourage every listener to get on the P A C T pact website and pick up stands books you will be I'm so glad you did, because they're filled with a wealth of information. And I know most of you that are listening, I'm so grateful because you have you want to grow, you're looking to evolve, share this with your partner, share this with a loved one, have start a conversation about it, start looking at what you want to prioritise, what do you want to change? How do you want to get there, and maybe you need some help grab the books, work through them, and start chapter by chapter, I love that with couples, take it in bite sized chunks, start talking about it, we got to start somewhere in this is a great place to start.

Dr. Stan

And you know, we have a bit my wife and I have a bit of a grandiose, want to kind of like save the world. Because we believe secure functioning is not new. There's nothing here that I'm inventing, and talked about read, you know, written about throughout the ages. This just makes sense. And but it's hard to do. I got it myself. I am called to task in my own family, every day by my students and so on to be secure functioning. If it were easy, we'd all be doing it. But it takes effort to do it. But it's worth it.

Kristen

Yeah, and the willingness. So I say we have an open feedback loop in our house. I'm like everyday, I'm like, Okay, thank you for that. That was very, Okay, one more thing for me to work on. And I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it. It's the greatest gift that I think we can create in a family system. So thank you for the work you're doing in the world. I appreciate your time, your heart, your energy. And everybody. Please share this. If you got a nugget here or there. Maybe you found something that just shifted the way you see something, tag it on social let us know what that was for you. Because I love hearing about that and know Stan does too. So thank you so much, Stan for your time. Great to see you. Nice to see you. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. For more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com. Thanks and have a great day.

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