Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast. I love having repeat guests, the ones that have made tremendous impact. And my next guest has been on the podcast before we will link the previous episode in the show notes if you want to go back and listen to that episode because she was really helpful to a lot of people. If you're walking through any kind of grief, whether you've lost a loved one of any kind, you've changed jobs, you're going through a divorce, any kind of a loss at all, you're moving. This is an important conversation to have. We need more conversations on grief. And my guest just wrote a new book Gina Moffa. And I want to introduce you to her because my conversation with her holds a tender and dear place to my heart because I just love her so much. Gina Moffa is a licenced psychotherapist in private practice in New York City of therapists for nearly two decades, he has helped people seeking treatment for trauma and grief as well as challenging life experiences and transitions as even positive experiences can bring grief. This includes work with Holocaust survivors as well as being a clinical director for an outpatient hospital programme specialises in substance use disorder. She received her master's degree in social work with a specialty in trauma from the New York University, and most recently wrote a book on navigating loss in a fast paced society called Moving on, does it mean letting go a modern guide to navigating loss. And what I want to say is Gina is the most humble down to earth, compassionate and loving person that you might meet truly like so who you hear come through is actually who she is in real life. And Gina and I met through a writing group rate or shelf pretzels writing group. And we just clicked in so I'm so excited to see her book come out into the world available in all places. So grab it, write a review that always helps authors and let me know how this episode has helped you. If you or a loved one is navigating any kind of grief loss transition trauma, this will be a very helpful episode I hope and without further ado, here is my conversation with Gina Moffa. Welcome to the close to Chapter podcast. I have a repeat guest coming on today because she has her book out in the world and everyone needs to grab it I have Gina Moffa here my dear, dear friend who is joining me and pub de when this airs will already have been but is tomorrow. And I was so happy for you on moving on. Does it mean letting go and a survival guide to kind of grief? Yeah, I love it. Because I was at the very infancy stages with you of you writing the book. And here you are. And it's out in the world. How are you feeling about it?

Gina

We were just talking about it. And it feels so surreal to me talk about the infancy stages, I don't think people know how long it takes to write a book. And we're talking years from the idea that you have and it's little seedling, and then following if you do traditional pub, it's like 18 months in the making, but you have a very short period of time to write the book. So it's funny because I really finished the book well over a year ago. But it takes all of that time now to get through the publishing process itself. And I just recently revisited my book doing the audio recording the audio version, and I was like, wow, I forgot I had that in there. Oh, thank god I touched upon that. Or well, why do you see that? Well, I don't share that embarrassing quip about myself or something. But it's, it's so surreal. It will be out in the world tomorrow. It's almost like suspended animation. I don't know how to feel yet. I'm scared. I'm nervous. I'm excited. I'm humbled. I'm grateful. There's so much there. It feels like such a deep blessing to have the opportunity to have written a book that I really truly, truly hope helps someone out there. So yeah, all of that to say it's nutty.

Kristen

I'm so happy for you because grief is something that we don't talk about much. And people feel like they're hurried through the grief journey. And they're like, Well, it's been so much time and I thought you'd be moved on by now. And what we know is there's no timeline for grief. How was it writing the book? cuz you've had your own grief journey guide, you have to revisit many was a grief burst throughout it was their grief moments, can you share a little bit about that process? Absolutely.

Gina

I was reliving the day my mother died in chapter one. And throughout the book, a lot of it is kind of how grief evolves to how milestones and anniversaries come up. But also just those mundane ordinary moments in grief that you can just be walking down the street or getting in your car and you get a whiff of something or someone you see on the street reminds you of your person. And all of this emotion comes flooding back and physical sensation. And I definitely had moments where I wanted to be as honest as I could about my relationship with my mother. I miss her ferociously. And we also had moments of being really different. And how do you contend with those moments where you're like, I can't just look at this person through rose coloured glasses. When I think in early grief, we want to just put them all on a pedestal and revere them in a lot of ways we can, we should, it's personal. But I also wanted to look at it as an honest human and say, yeah, there were moments, my mom and I were so different, she would think I was weird for something or, like, we just didn't see eye to eye. And I really relived that in writing the book, but also, in a way, healing that to a really seeing where she was always coming from a place of love and caring and worry. And here I was this adventurous spirit, just wanting to get out into the world and live the full breadth and width of my life and not wanting my mom to be afraid for me, but not understanding that sometimes that's the role of the mom. So it's an interesting moment of really almost our relationship evolving throughout the course of this book. But I also had a death of a client in the midst of writing this book, also very, very suddenly lost to a very sudden health condition. And so that really also threw me for a loop. So it was a lot of different types of grieving whilst writing this. And it definitely adds a few layers in there, you know, even for me, but it's really interesting.

Kristen

Yeah, that's so hard. I'm so sorry to lose a client. We are in the middle of writing this book.

Gina

Yeah, a young guy totally. And yeah, that's really

Kristen

hard. Yeah, that's the thing about grief, sometimes it hits out of nowhere, and you're going along with your day. And then all of a sudden, the person you just talked to five minutes ago, or saw last week is no longer here. And that's such a hard part, I think of the grieving journey, the shock and try to process that sudden loss,

Gina

I think we don't understand it enough that our brains actually can't wrap themselves around the fact that this person is no longer where they always are. And yet, so we have to now sort of disconnect from knowing that they're in this place where they always are, but stay connected to them emotionally and in our heart space. So it's really a hard thing for the brain to do. It's a lot of work to grieve, right? I always say grief takes endurance, because the very, very beginning stages of grief, we're both disconnecting and reconnecting at the same time, we have to disconnect from knowing that they're here without understanding really where they are. But we also have to connect and continue our bond and continue our relationship. And that's a real, that's a strategy, right? That's a hard thing for the brain to do. And it does it but it does take some time.

Kristen

Yeah, and what I've noticed about my own grieving journey, because as you know, I lost my mom in October, in working with clients and our team, five people on the pathway to Healing Team have lost their parents in the last five. Wow, get a lot of what I've noticed is the amount of energy zaps and the physical impact of grief that we do not talk about. Can you share a little bit about how it manifests perhaps for some physically, and then energy and exhaustion that can come from grief and lack of like clear focus, you know, brain fog, and yeah, all of those things.

Gina

I wrote my book with the aim of having somebody read it who does have brain fog, because I didn't want to create a dense book because it is important that we be able to metabolise ideas and insights in a way that our brain can actually tolerate. But one of the things even I didn't understand as a Griever early on, and I was doing this work was how it was going to show up in my body. I have an entire chapter dedicated to this because it's so important that we understand that grief is a full body experience. And that it is not just emotions that come and go and ease and all of that, that it shows up in inflammation in our bodies. People can have higher blood pressure, cardiovascular issues, it can show up in headaches all the time, repeated headaches, gastrointestinal issues. If you are somebody who has that sort of propensity towards gastrointestinal challenges, it comes in the ways that we sleep we may be sleeping more we may not be able to sleep at all because we're ruminating. It comes in the way that we nourish our bodies are we drinking enough water, I remember getting even later on a kidney stone. After the death of my mom, I wasn't drinking enough water and I was really dehydrated. And so it's something even like this, oh, this is grief related, I have dehydrated myself into his painful kidney stone, but it's in our libidos. It is in pretty much every area of our physical ways of moving in the world. Grief will show up. And I'm always saying and I say this a lot in the book is that one of the things we really need to do is, especially early on in grief is not necessarily ignore our emotions, but to pay a lot closer attention to our bodies, making sure that we are moving, making sure that we're getting sunshine, making sure that we're getting enough protein and nourishing our bodies, getting enough water, resting our bodies, even if we can't sleep, it's important to at least lie down and rest your body. And to take it back to basics is the most important thing in the very early stages of grief. Because like I said, it takes endurance.

Kristen

Yeah, it's almost like you're in a survival of like, what's the next thing I have to do? And I had a friend say I've noticed, yep, I had to go okay, they'll go into shame. She was like I noticed because we're talking about how grief is impacted us. We're going back and forth. And she said, I noticed her a lot more slowed down because I'm like pretty peppy. Yeah. Like I wouldn't say energetic but I'm peppy, maybe enthusiastic? And I sure aren't, I think that kind of has maybe tapped down a notch that I wasn't even aware of it. It was like interesting to hear, like, oh, I kind of noticed you're a little bit less energetic is the word she used. And I was like, Yeah, that's true. So sometimes, how do we become aware of it? Because sometimes you're just going through the motions, it's almost like how do we become more aware of what we need during the grieving journey?

Gina

I think most of the time, and I speak from experience, I became aware by doing it wrong. And I don't mean that in any way that people are doing it wrong. But for me, I got very sick and wound up in the hospital with pancreatitis, and my thyroid stopped functioning as well. And I think I want people to avoid finding out the hard way. So that's one of the things I say is, it's really hard to know, if you're not giving yourself what you need. And so that's why I say let's start here. So you don't get to the point where you find yourself losing energy. But the truth is, is the grief process if we know what it could be like ahead of time that these things could happen, you could be more exhausted, you could find yourself anxious, more, you could find yourself feeling depressed and ruminating or, or the ruminating is the guilt and all of that stuff. But even if you find yourself feeling more tired, it's not something we can necessarily know ahead of time. But I think that we're not taught to be more connected to our bodies. I mean, we understand the mind body connection, right? It's this buzzword in the wellness trend fourfold. But I don't think we really understand it in terms of how it affects our mental health, and how the two are so closely related, when anything painful in our life happens or challenging or sudden. And so it's really hard to say, Oh, how do I find awareness of the fact that I am maybe lower energy or moving slower, we won't necessarily know it unless someone points it out. Or we're just very in tune with our bodies, right? You also have a lot happening in your outer world and people to take care of and people who count on you. And both clients and podcast guests and family. And so it in those cases, it's really, we have to say, Okay, I'm always giving my energy out. What do I do for myself in this way? Can I schedule time to just check in? Can I put my hand on my heart and say, What do I need right now? How am I doing? Is there anything that I need that I'm not giving myself? And what is this experience that I'm having today in grief? And I think we don't do that enough. Maybe we feel like it's silly. Or maybe we don't actually have the time or take the time or we're not maybe used to it but it is important to check in with ourselves as often as possible during grief because we are ever shifting and our bodies will be speaking. It's just a matter of if we're listening and how we're listening.

Kristen

Okay, so how did you know that it was grief related? After you got pancreatitis and the thyroid? How did you connect that it was grief? And then how did you work through it?

Gina

Well, I feel like okay, I shouldn't say that grief itself manifested it but I do believe that it certainly exacerbated it. For the first time I actually stopped. I was so busy after my mom died because I had a few other major losses. The same week, my job ended and my building got sold of where I was working and as a clinical director and my apartment building got sold, and that the restaurant that I go to for refuge for 10 plus years suddenly got sold or lost its lease or something like that something happened where it just all within the span of a week, I lost many, many foundational things in my life. And so I didn't feel like I had the time, I didn't have the time to really sit in my feelings and explore the loss of my mom, because I had a lot of other losses to contend with. And so when I started to feel my body shutting down, once you're in a hospital bed, and you're like, huh, now what you have the time to really feel what you need to feel. It was really a hard moment, I'll be honest. But I went back to my doctor, and I said, what's going on? And he's like, I don't know. He's like, you've always been healthy, what's really happening here? And I looked at him. And I said, and I don't know why I asked it. I said, Do you think it could be grief? And he said, Well, he asked me, When did your mom die? I said, you know, a few months ago, a few weeks ago, several weeks anyway. And he said, No, no, you're good. That was a while ago, that wouldn't be affecting you now. And that's when it dawned on me. Number one, the medical field is ill equipped to deal with grief. And at least at the time, this is several years ago, now, seven years ago, but I thought to myself, Wow, I think actually, I'm onto something here. I think that my body is really manifesting the severe emotion that I'm not able to feel right now. But also, this is, to me, it felt really traumatic, because everything that was safe just was crumbling beneath me. And at the time, I didn't have a poetic point of view about it. I was like, What the hell, really God, like God is doing right now. And so I really do believe at that particular time, I was just in such a state of upheaval, that my body was not sure what to do with it, and that it manifested in these different ways. And it did dawn on me after I talked to my doctor, and my doctor sort of brushing it away. And my saying, Actually, no, you shouldn't be brushing this away. This is really important. And by the way, this isn't weeks after losing a parent is not long ago, and nobody should just be fine by now. And in fact, it's when things start to really bubble up.

Kristen

Absolutely. I can see how you're like, No, no, this is I'm on to something here. So okay, this leads to another question. A friend and I were talking and courses of my whole thing, my friend and I were talking to her and she loved it. I don't even know what it would look like to like grieve, like, fully grieve? What would it look like if someone's fully grieving? Because we have lives? We're trying to keep jobs? We've got families, like, what would it look like, if we're fully grieving, she's like, I don't even know.

Gina

And we like thinking would be really fully showing up to the experience in every present moment. I don't want to say that people aren't fully grieving, if they have to go to work, or they're not fully grieving, if they have to parent. I think grief shows up, however, it needs to show up for us. And I don't think grief shows up in the tears or the wailing on the floor like it does for one other person. I think we all have a different way of releasing our emotions. But I do, I would say, you know, what are the ways in which you you cope with things that are hard? What are the ways in which you experience your emotions after something really, really significantly painful happens in your life, because that's how we show up fully for it, it's going to look different for everybody. I know somebody who went on a nature retreat after a major loss and spent seven days whaling in a forest. And that's a very high bar, tell me you many people who can do that I am so envious, that somebody could take seven days to be in the forest to whale. And I don't say that in any snarky way. That's amazing. I don't have that luxury. And I didn't have the luxury at the time. And I think a lot of people don't have the luxury. So how do we show up for our grief and the ways that we can? Does that mean if we can't go whaling in a forest? The we're not showing up fully? No, it doesn't. What it really means to show up fully is to not push it away, and not actively continue to push it away, right, we have days where we're in the grocery store, and we may not want to break down every time. It's okay if we do but we may not want to. So maybe we put it in a little box, and we keep it in the side until we're out at the car. And then we can let it loose. But I think it's really important to know that showing up fully is simply showing up in a way that is not pushing it away. So I almost say it's the opposite. We show up we grieve fully by not denying our grief by engaging with it when it's here, by taking care of our bodies by understanding that grief will play a role in every area of our lives and doing whatever we can to show up to that with honesty and as much self compassion as we possibly can. So I mean, that is my version of showing up fully.

Kristen

That's so true. And I think there's something else to be said in the grieving journey, like your relationship with the person that Well whoever it is. It changes in a way and that might scare some people but I think it evolves it changes and transcend. Talk about little bit about that during the grief process. It does It stayed the same necessarily.

Gina

It doesn't for me, I'm going to speak for myself right now, because it's maybe a little easier to conceptualise that because look, I'm understanding that there are people who will lose people that they didn't have a great relationship with. And that may be a benefit for them, right? So but what I do think is important is if you've had a wonderful relationship, or a meaningful relationship, the idea that you have to let them go, like society wants you to is not realistic, and it's not healthy. And I think unless it's something that you want to do, let's not do it. For me, I started to see my mom as this invisible sidekick. And I started to have more and more conversations with her, I started to think of the things in our relationship that I wanted to be better. And I talked it out with her. And I imagined that I got the answers that I wanted. At the end of the day, I always knew that love was present. And even you're in a relationship, and it doesn't feel like love is present, that you can bring that sense of love. And it really is love for yourself and love for what could have been. But I think it's important to know that even if you didn't have a great relationship, you can change the course of that, if you didn't feel empowered by that relationship, you can take back that power, you can have the conversations that you need to have, because now they're safe to have them. And I think what we often look at with grief is that it's just an ending and a cutting off and there's no more chances. And I don't think that that would be healthy to just think that way, I think that we can continue to evolve in our relationships, we can heal things that we weren't able to in when they were alive, we can heal things that we were estranged, we can say the things that we need to say. And if you had a loving relationship, to think of ways that honour them in ritual or behaviour, or in your own life, day to day, that feel meaningful for you. But by all means, if you want to keep your relationship, or you want to fix your relationship or evolve it, this is all possible. It isn't just Oh, that's too late. Now. I mean, we have to think bigger, we have to think outside

Kristen

of the box. Where do you find accessing joy and laughter? Because for some people, that's it could be a defence. For some they feel guilty that they're having any joy or laughter and then some find it very therapeutic. We're in the grief journey, would you find joy and laughter.

Gina

I think I'm probably not alone when I say joy and laughter took me by surprise. So it was really the week that my mother died. And I was at a dinner party that I didn't want to go to. But all the friends were gathering and we wound up playing cards against humanity. And I couldn't help it. It was as if it just laughter came and kidnapped me. And I just found myself rolling on the floor with laughter and to be honest, my body needed that release. And I could have gotten up and said, Wow, my mom just died. What am I doing here laughing and having a good time. And that thought definitely crossed my mind for sure. But the other part of me was like, wow, I needed that. While my body needed that. Wow, what a release. And my mom was funny. And my mom loved to laugh. It would make her really upset if I just never found joy again, what honouring would that do for her? And what honouring would that do for the rest of my life that she created. And so I find that we have to make room for joy and laughter We don't force it. But sometimes it will come and take us by surprise. And there's a myth that we always have to be sad and gloomy and grieving is not always dark. And grieving is not always sitting in the corner close to the floor. And grieving is not always just crying. Grieving is remembering the beauty that these people brought to our lives. Whoever we've lost, the grieving is being present in the fact that this person had so much meaning to us and loved us and cared for us and breathing is keeping that love alive and spreading that that's really what grief is also we hear grief is love all the time. And grief is joy and grief is laughter and grief is taking care of ourselves and grief is continuing traditions. It's not just this one dimensional thing. And so I don't want anyone to feel guilty if they find that laughter comes by surprise. And it certainly doesn't sever you from missing them or grieving them. It's all in it all together. That is also grief.

Kristen

Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think some people need to hear that and need that permission. And I do think it's a release. I do some like Seinfeld's coming to town Oh, Jerry Seinfeld, I would love to see it. Like there's this they like laughter is something I'm craving. And it's like, my body's craving that my body's craving a release. And to look at that way in the honour it I think is really important. I was wondering for you, does this get heavy talking about grief all the time, or just a summary So the third question popped in my head, I was like, does this get heavy for Gina to talk? I mean, you're swimming in it in a sense,

Gina

I am always swimming in it. Absolutely. I've been doing trauma work for 20 years. And grief is a very big part of that. And now I focus primarily on both of them together. But but grief, it's so multifaceted. And I laugh a lot in my sessions. And it comes upon us in pretty unexpected ways. And so I think that's what the joy of my work is, is that it isn't all about the sadness. And it isn't always about how that sadness manifests itself. But it is also about remembering the beauty and remembering the good things, and also remaining who we are. I could say grief changes us. And it does in a lot of ways, but the core of who we are the laughter and the joy, that's stuff is so involuntary, it will come out because it's a part of who we are. Yeah, is it during COVID For sure. I feel like I was inundated was also volunteering with two other organisations and taking on as many people as I could, and it would and starting to write a book on it. And so I for sure, was really inundated. And I didn't have any release at that point, because I was isolated. And now I could say, Okay, I feel like this is getting a little heavy. It's been a hard week, and what am I going to do to fill myself back up? Or how do I get back out there? You know, nature. I've watched a lot of panda videos there. I love it. between sessions. If it's really heavy, I will watch a panda falling off of a chair, or rolling down a hill. And you really can't help it. It just came upon me and I will roll of laughter or watching a puppy I go back to basics for me. I'm like, Okay, what is it for me personally, that I find funny or things that I need to just have a quick refill. If you have a quick refill, or something that makes you laugh, like, throw on a YouTube video of Jerry Seinfeld for your 10 minute break and put it on while you're making lunch or whatever it is, that can just give you a quick burst of life again, for me, it's a new thing. By the way, Kristin, I was not always into the panda videos. But now this is a new discovery of Gina, I really liked the panda videos. And it's just so funny. I'm assuming I'll grow this at some point since I'm, I am a fully grown adult. But it is it can get very heavy. So for me, I'm like how can I fill up really quickly and bring my full self back in here just to get that energy back up. But I'm fortunate I really love people with whom I'm working. And if I couldn't help them, I would refer them. But it is joy. I mean, I really do get so much from connecting with people in this way. And I know she didn't say we love them. But she got to love. It's

Kristen

all I do love. I love you to all my clients because I do I genuinely love them. And I genuinely curious about their story. They know and I know you do too. And that curiosity, I think is what keeps that joy alive in us. To some degree. I feel like that's the gift that keeps on giving is that I'm really genuinely curious about their process, and what, how they really feel.

Gina

And I just feel like it's such an honour to hold space for someone. We're not just in the hard times, like I'm looking at somebody's life as a whole, not just their loss. It's how do we fit their loss in this life and go forward from there together. But to me, it's like, I'm always finding that I'm rooting for someone, I'm looking at the bird's eye view, and saying, Okay, up the head, I see a river, we could take a rest to there, something like that. And I think that's the beauty of our job is that we're able to see a different higher perspective, and help lead people there in some way. Or at least when we're in the deep dark Canyon to have the privilege of being someone's travelling companion in that place. And it really is a calling because it isn't for the faint of heart being a travelling companion, but there's so much joy in it. There really is. And it's really interesting, because I don't know if you feel this way, but I can't explain why there's joy in it. Why it's the life affirming, but I just feel it from my soul that this is where I'm supposed to be and how grateful Am I to be able to play this part with people?

Kristen

100% You're saying that so beautifully. It just speaks to my heart and soul. I'm like, yes, exactly it. So what as we kind of wrap up, which I hate to deal, what would be the three most important things you would want to share about grief?

Gina

Oh, I would say this. Don't compare yourself to other Grievers. Don't compare your loss to other people's loss. Everyone will have a different experience. And so I want you to adjust your expectations that you are lost and the way that you contend with it and endure it will be different from other people. So it's really important that we just take wipe out x affectations. But with that said, to replace it with self compassion thing that we're really hard at humans are really hard at self compassion. But we're always quick to do self improvement. You know what I mean? How can I do this better? How can I grieve better? How can I grieve more efficiently. And I'm saying we do that by being kind to ourselves by showing up for ourselves by giving ourselves the attunement that we need to whatever our needs are, by going gently, by creating rituals that feel good and honour both ourselves, our lives, our histories, and what we've lost and whom we've lost. But also to reach out, we can't do this alone. We're not islands, we cannot isolate when we're in a place of loss. Solitude is great isolation can get dangerous. The please reach out except help. People always want to help however clumsily. And so often we say, we don't need it. When we do. It's just the connection, except genuine connection. You don't have to go it alone, bring in self compassion, create some new rituals that feel good, and that honour your loss, and do whatever you can to not compare yourself. Grief can be messy. Grief can be long, Grief can be unpredictable and tenuous, and you do not have to go it alone. Just do it gently one day at a time. And however, you can support yourself with comfort and good people who really get it. And that would be really what I would say as a good starting place.

Kristen

Yeah, I love that. Where can people find the book? What are the important pieces you want people to know about the book? And what's the main takeaway that you want to share today?

Gina

Well, first of all, you can find the book anywhere books are sold a lot of people, it's easier to get Amazon, I love independent bookstores. But anywhere that you feel comfortable, or you buy your books, my book should be there. I'm great. And I'm grateful for that. And I wrote this book, because I wanted something that was a very gentle caring and warm voice and heartfelt guide during a time when people are losing and may not know what to do next. And this talks about non death losses, different types of losses, how loss can be and grief can get more complicated if we didn't have a great relationship, but also for people who don't know how to say no to the wedding that they want to go to, or people that don't know how to go back on dates, or how to be in marriage and go through a loss, how to go back to work and figure out how to navigate all of these new life things that now that you are a different person going through this really painful life event, it changes us. And so I wanted that, what next? And how do I do it, sense of agency over something that's really unpredictable. And so that was why I wrote this. But I also wanted it because people don't have access to therapy. Grief is a really big mental health burden that people are carrying. But so many people either are afraid of therapy because they had a bad experience. They can't afford it or wherever they live, they don't have a good therapist there or a therapist there. And so I wanted this to be sort of a front line moment for them like this is what it would be like to be in therapy. And I want you to feel as cared for and seen and witnessed and held in the pages of this book as much as a book can do because we're obviously limited in this book is not a saviour by any means. But my hope is that it can be something that you can return to again and again, when you needed help with specific things in your life and also just to have permission to feel what you feel and learn about yourself. How do you know if what you've experienced is traumatising? Why does your grief feel different than other people's grief? This stuff is really always present when we're grieving. And not a lot of people understand what they're experiencing. So that's why I wrote this book. And my hope is that it's just a soft landing for people in this confusing state.

Kristen

Thank you for writing the book moving on, does it mean letting go? I think this is a really powerful book that is digestible. That's right. I liked what you said like when you're in brain fog, you're have a hard time digesting or feeling motivated, try to even work on something or understand something. And this is the solution to that. Like if you need something a book that is going to be digestible, that you can have practical application and steps and tools and validation for your process. I think that's what helps. Thank you so much. Everybody grabbed the book he had Gina mafa.com Is your website. Sure is. So if you want more to know more about Gina, hop on our website I got on there today. It's lovely.

Gina

Oh, thank you, friend. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I want this to be a community. I just started a Facebook support group. I'm going to do a book club around my book in the fall. I'm also wanting to do a workshop on how to get through the holidays while grieving but you I wanted to do a book club also. So that we can actually go through the book together and really tackle some of these moments that come up for us in our grief. So, so please sign up for my newsletter, so you don't miss out if that's something that speaks to you. And if you do buy my book, I thank you so much, and just know that I'm in it with you. And the more that we all understand about grief, the better we can do for one another, and ourselves. So thank you, Kristen, for having me on this. I love you so much. Anyway, let's get to this, essentially,

Kristen

if they want to get on the book club or get your mailing list, how do they do that?

Gina

You can find it at Gina mafa.com. Right on my website, there will be something that says get letters from Gina. And also I don't have the book club information up yet because I'm in the process of creating it. But you can find all that that will come to you in the newsletter if you sign up for it. So

Kristen

they may be late. Yeah, seriously what to tell everybody. And then just for a moment, you are one of the most compassionate, loving, caring Intune people I've met. And there's I've met a lot of people. Yeah, I just wanted to say that about you. And you had a post yesterday, I was like, of course this is because this is the energy you're bringing to the world. She either posted on her instagram and facebook that a GAO that had been kind of a beta reader, if you will had Gina was doing a photoshoot. And this gal that was a beta reader had her book as they were doing this photo shoot reading your book at the exact same time of this photo shoot. I'm like, this is So Gina. I'm like it. Yeah.

Gina

It was surreal. I mean, I walked past the bench. And I was like, that looks so familiar. And I was like, Wait, it's mine. That's why it looks familiar. That's my book. Oh my gosh, it was one of those moments where I was like, Hi, I'm so sorry to bother you. But that's mine. And also Hi. And thank you for reading it. And also Can I take a picture with you because this is wild. And she was so wonderful and gracious about it. And so I did take a photo of me just in pure shock that this was happening. And I was telling Kristen earlier for anyone listening, he's like, I was so scared to ask her what she thought of it. I was like, I won't ask you what you think of it. It's totally okay. But I hope that you like it. And it was really sweet. It was a sweet moment, but I had to capture it. So I'm grateful that she led me

Kristen

it was so cute. I was like of course she loved the book was found it helpful. But here you are in the park bench with the book and she's holding your book. I thought it's like out of a movie. It's like When Harry Met Sally. I mean that really but you know, like, This is unbelievable. In New York City.

Gina

No, I mean, yeah, you should you should include it because it was really surreal. It was so surreal. And I was thinking, Wow, is this what it's going to feel like to see my book in the wild? And yeah, I think as an author, you forget that there may be a time that you see somebody reading your book. And I feel like I'm not really great at self advertising and self marketing. I just hope that it helps, right. And so I wouldn't be afraid to see my book out in the wild, because I want to say, hey, what do you think? Did you find it helpful. And you know, I hope you found it helpful. And if you didn't, please email me. So I can figure out a way to make it more helpful for you. And because that's really all I want. It's probably best I don't see it out in the wild too often. I might get pretty tired.

Kristen

Oh, I love it out there. It's gonna be out loud often. So I just want to say thank you, Gina for your heart, your authenticity, your vulnerability, and being of service to the world. This is a book that's going to change lives. So go grab it, and write a review, because that's what helps book authors write a review. And let us know what you think. So thank you for being here. And I was so proud of you.

Gina

Thank you, friend. And likewise, thank you for all you do and I know your listeners can completely agree with me and attest to the fact that you are a bright light and a blessing to so many of us. So thank you for doing what you do.

Kristen

Love you Gina. This is like a love fest. He kind of is indeed more than that in the World Radio. Thanks Gina. So excited for tomorrow. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. For more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com. Thanks and have a great day.