Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Kristen

Welcome to the close the chapter podcast, I am so grateful you are spending your time here with me today. I am thrilled to have my guest with me today to talk about so many subjects, but we're really gonna focus on anger getting uncomfortable with emotions. Well, we weren't taught that many of us as children, we weren't allowed to say how we felt or sometimes it wasn't even safe to connect with our feelings, or we might have dissociated from our bodies. We're gonna dive into all of that today. So welcome to the show, I am so excited you're here. So introduce yourself to the audience and how you got to write your book. So thank you so much for having me.

Moshe

My name is Moshe Ratson, I am a psychotherapist here in New York City, focusing on couples and marriages or relationships in general, doing a lot of works on anger and conflict resolution, self esteem and confidence. Because of my history of as a business person working for Fortune 500 is at the managerial level. I'm doing also executive coaching and life coaching spirituality, I'm diving into different kinds of aspects that are believed that we live a very holistic perspective, trying to look at many aspects of the human life. So yeah, I was intrigued by the subject of anger by some of my colleagues MFTs that really was focusing on that, and I just took it didn't realise that therefore of the issue. But for me, anger is just kind of like a strong emotions that for me, the framework that I created is more about uncomfortable emotions in general, again, anger, it's kind of like annoyances, displeasure, frustrations. Anytime we don't get what we want, we feel some level of anger, obviously, because of the extreme, profound, powerful nature of anger that is so justified. And that energy is very, very difficult to deal with that. So I believe that if you know how to deal with that, it will be easier for you to deal with lesser powerful emotions or discomfort. That's why I created this framework. And that's what I created my book, anger is your compass, harness the wisdom of anger and transform your life? I love the title. I think it's something we don't talk about much because we look at anger as a bad emotion. Many people think they get confused between anger and rage. Can you break that down for us a little bit more? I basically different people have different kinds of definitions about and you know, we can go into that. But it's not relevant. I think for me, I mean, I can tell you what I'm separating between the anger and aggression. I'll put it this way. Anger is the emotions. Emotion is simply a feedback of your body, your mind to the situation. And it's what was very, very hard to control at the moment that it happens. It's simply indicating that something outside in your environment or within your something needs to be corrected. Now, how do you respond to that, that the main issue, so some people will act it in a very repressive way of avoiding aid not filling he does to describe but at the same time, some people will cheat, okay. And the average will be very aggressive. Yes, toward the outside. I do believe that both elements, if you repress it, it seems that to some degree, it's even aggressive nature toward yourself, while if you attack your partner, or whatever it is that cause you the harm, your aggression goes toward outside. So in both cases, your aggressive nature will take place. And the idea for me is how can you deal with the emotions, feel it, process it, and ultimately understand the need underneath anger, and ultimately, what I call creating a value from that, yourself and others. And so my framework really developed that concept. So again, to answer your questions, I mean, there will be separation between emotions, the anger, and the action that comes along with that could be a times aggression or passivity. So let's break down the framework. There's four parts to the framework. Would you mind sharing that with our listeners? Yeah, definitely. There are a couple of things that I'm putting it and the framework first of all, the moment that we feel anger, I put into this way that valve for needs underneath anger for needs of categories, and it could be overlap, but the first need is for the need for safety and security. Over time, we feel danger intimidation for

Moshe

risk, then, you know, we feel that, oh, our safety is in danger, we need to do something about that. So this is the first need that comes along, which is the natural organic, original raw anger that was designed for survival purposes. The second need is the need for integrity and justice. This is when your morals values, belief system standards have been broken, very some kind of a hole in your mind that needs to be sustained. And something is breaking it, it could be somebody's cursing you, somebody may be treated with disrespect, somebody created the injustice. But it can also be in a situation, I don't know why you feel that people need to respond to you on time for your email, and suddenly they don't. So if there is a certain level of where you're thinking or believing that it's supposed to be done, and this is not happening, then the anger is created. And then as a result of that, there is some kind of unmet need in regards to injustice or basically integrity. The third need is basically the need for love and positive regards. So every time we don't feel belong, every time somebody hurt our self image, when we feel disrespected, when we feel hurt, when we feel shame, suddenly, that triggers anger, and we want to restore that love that we don't have. And the last, but not least, is the need for self actualization and transcendence. Every time somebody blocking our needs, our goals, our vision, our mission, our freedom, the need for fulfilment, for contribution to society to whatever it is, then it comes along. So coming out of this needs, I mean, we need to realise what we do. And I don't know if you want me to continue developing that concept. What do we do with that? Or you have any other questions that relate to that? Yeah, I have one question. I think that's really important to explore. Because we've heard that anger can be a secondary emotion. What do I mean by that? It can be a defence, a protective part that comes online. If those needs aren't being violated in some way, Anger can come online, and it can be a core emotion, but then it could also be a defence, how do you distinguish between the two? When is it kind of a defensive part? And when is it a core emotion? That's a beautiful, powerful question. I like that so much. And it's hard to me, I'm not as always defining it as secondary and primary, Wiley's has devalue. Again, I think we need to ask the right questions to dig in. Why and why and go down deeper to the level of the needs. I don't think it's kind of like exclusive primary or secondary sometime it's a combination of both obviously, varies inherit very shame very Spain associate. And that's kind of like the primary emotion that the times the anger covers, but we all know that the more confident you are, yes, in generality you can use if somebody treats you with injustice, so then you are strong and various, no, you just say I need to correct the situation. So the primary emotions of anger is justified, that's okay. If you are not as confident then maybe there is insecurity involved, may be very self esteem involved may be very shame very inherit. So I'm not looking at in an exclusive way. And but we need to really look at that and understand that and will it that's a thing, the framework of leads in some way to look at from a different angle rather than primary and secondary, which is also included in that it's okay, just simply ask, what are my needs? Does dancer Yes, yes, I think what are my needs and exploring what are your needs? Because oftentimes people want to be heard, and they want to be understood. And if they feel misunderstood, or they feel unheard, they don't feel seen. Yes, they can start feeling angry, they can start feel some disgust with the another person. How does someone work through that when they feel unseen, unheard? And they're longing to feel that, but they're not receiving that on the other end? How do you work through that, and VCFs is part of the framework because the tendency of us when we don't get that need, as you said, being heard, validated, seen, the natural tendency of anger is to project our anger outside because something in our environment is wrong. So we are trying to change the environment to change whoever it is that kind of like disrespected us didn't hear us didn't give us the love that we want. So that's the natural, instinctual way that anger is operate for survival reasons, sports, reason, flight, and fight whatever it is. So through the framework, I want people to feel the anger, but ultimately, in some ways, while you know you scan your environment, you also change the project or back to yourself and see exactly what's going on inside of you. What do I miss internally? And how can I balance these internal and external to ultimately communicate your needs in a truthful, compassionate way? hearing the stories that are making in my own mind, I mean, moving away from all these narrative judgement stories in

Moshe

Willie creating a an honest, sincere kind of story, but taking into account the responsibility that anger is yours.

Kristen

I like that I think one of the challenges for people is they focus so much on getting this other person to meet the need. And then when that person doesn't meet their need, and let's say, to go back to the example of being seen, being understood, being acknowledged, being validated, they spend so much time thinking, how can I get them to meet my need? So I tell them my need, but then they don't meet it? Because they don't have the tools. They don't have the resources, maybe they've got their own trauma? How do you help someone work through that when you're trying to help them meet their own needs? So I work with clients to meet their own needs, but they think that to meet their own needs, they have to get this person to meet their needs, whether it's their partner, their friend, their boss, their child? How do you help them see that to meet their own needs without being dependent? If they express their need? And that person isn't capable of offering that to them? How do you help them work through that one of the great modality that I love so much that they integrated within my work is done violent communication.

Moshe

The idea is that underneath our action is that we are trying to do the best we can for our own needs. When I'm not fulfilling your own needs, it's not because I don't want to fulfil your needs, it's not because I want to hurt you is not necessarily because I don't love you, is because I'm doing the best I think it is for moments I'm trying to fulfil my own needs. This perspective is so powerful, and you will almost like deep personalise the action of the other person. I mean, when you look at from very humanistic, compassionate way, they have a person doing it in a way that they want their needs to be met. And that's all. So your story is your story. Now, there is a lot of personal responsibility, there is a lot of that's part of the three principles that I developed in my book one, again, it's personal responsibility. The second one is non judgmental mindfulness. And the third one is cultivation of compassion. Once we integrate all these three together, then we can have a better perspective about the situation. So we're not judging the other person, we treat them with a lot of humility and humanity and compassion. And if we're able to do it, we'll have a person and we can do it for ourself as well, of course, then we change the way we think that we can analyse, and really try to communicate whatever we want to do from a place of needs and wants and compassion, rather than demanding that the other person will fulfil our needs. And you know what you can do, you can do the best job even in the world, by a certain time, it doesn't even if you do that in a kind, gentle way, it doesn't also mean that your partner isn't going to going to provide it to you. And that's another layer that you have learned how to let go. And how do you help someone say, let's just say they say, well, they're so angry, and they're treat me terrible, and I don't have compassion for them. I'm trying to access compassion, but their anger blocks me from being able to access compassion for the other person, because they scare me. Their anger scares me like it sends me into my own protective part that says, Oh, this doesn't feel safe to go to your kind of four needs and the safety. Let's say you don't feel safe because someone else's anger feels so intense. How do you help someone access compassion for that person? So I said, therapist yourself, you know that every kind of like slogan that we talking about, develop compassion, have non judgmental mindfulness, take personal responsibility to meet everything is a practice is an exercise, everybody is psyched to, oh, well, I need to be there. I don't. So I need to meet myself where I am, or I need to meet my partner, of course, wherever they are, and really commit ourselves to develop that practice, that compassion, that letting go that working on ourselves on our emotions, understanding what's going on. So all these elements are practice. And I think we need to meet ourselves where we are in a gentle way. But we need to buy into a system we need to buy in to be committed to the practice. That's the starting point. Start with again, with personal responsibility. No, it's not gonna happen overnight. So there are many tools that are provided in the book to allow yourself to gently meet yourself where you are, how to develop that accessing your emotions, it's not gonna happen overnight. The compassion is not going to happen overnight. And that's why I do believe that we need to train ourselves. I have that slogan prevention is better than cure. So you trying to work on yourself day in day out before you reach this moment of confrontation, and conflict with your partner when they don't give you what you want. When you feel good, or you have a little bit of annoyances, this conference, deal with that lower level

Moshe

have emotions? How do you deal with that? How do you manage that? How do you access compassion and vis moments? Because when you're angry, might be a little bit too late. That's I do believe in small steps, I do believe in meeting yourself where you are, have gratitude journals, have compassionate journal, have registered uncomfortable feelings. What do you do? How do you meet your needs? What do you do? How do you communicate? It doesn't have to be anger, lower level of emotions, then you build the muscles to deal with the situation, which when it's really happening at a high level,

Kristen

okay, so let's say someone says, I don't even know what I feel, I don't even know where to start with feelings, like, I know, anger. And then some people are even like, it's not safe to feel angry. My parents were out of control. So had they have a lot of repressed anger. So they only want to feel happy emotion. So where does someone even start? From your perspective to identify emotions?

Moshe

Yeah, it's a powerful question. It's very, very hard. And you're right. I mean, at times, even in my own practice, when I tell him, what do you feel? And he tells me, I don't know. I said, Do you feel it anywhere in your body? Some people? Yes, some people? No. And yes, at times, some people are so cut off from their emotions at such a deeper level only when it's reaching a particular threshold, they feel it. And even that, I think it's a practice. So meditations for example, mindfulness, try to create a journal, but situation, very small situations and moments that you feel or you don't feel in your body, yes, in your mind. And again, you try to create a higher level of sensitivity in a good way, to a lower level of emotions. Because when you think about it, in your life in our life, the millions of moments that we need to make decisions, right or wrong, and even respond to a situation. And every time you make a decision, there are some feelings over otherwise, we would not feel the difference. And we need to enhance that ability to stay in at times. And I'm telling, okay, if you don't feel it, you don't feel it at the moment. Just bring the questions. And again, see what happens. And it takes time. And I think somatic work, you really understanding your body feeling it. And at times, I do believe that in some exercises are fully kind of screaming and crying, allowing yourself to fully move your body to get these kind of senses of the because ultimately, the emotions are stored in the molecules of the body. So you have to allow it to be. So it's trying to connect to the feelings for the thoughts through the body, for the feelings for the sensations and whatever entries works for you. It's good. But again, it's a good point because many people are really unable to do so. And that takes time.

Kristen

And I think this is a very important point that I know Gabor Ma Tei has been really trying to push Dr. Basal Vander Kolk, that the body and the mind are not separate. And neither is your environment. So when we think well, I don't want to go back and deal with my childhood stuff. People don't realise that that does impact your physiology. It impacts your how you feel, it impacts your emotions, because emotions live in the body to your point, emotions live in the physiology. They're not separate. So our body isn't separate from our mind. They're all connected. And I think that piece for people and if they've had any trauma, that dissociation can take them away from connecting to their body because it wasn't safe. And so a lot of embodiment work, I think is so important to connecting to emotions, and learning to feel safe in your own physiology in your own body is really important. Let's talk about anger in the body. So we have suppressed anger, we have anger that is actually behaviorally externalised. Right? So let's talk about how that anger, noticing anger in the body? Where would someone begin to notice anger in the body?

Moshe

I think it's starts by desperation of posing, staying steel and not reacting. See what happens. Try to observe yourself. And again, we're talking about anger, but different level of emotions from zero to 10. Where How much do you feel and we want to ultimately try to capture that earlier than later. So many people are able to feel it at the level of eight. But when we try to practice that and try to see how can we pay attention to the small things in the body. And again, it is practice just staying there, really, and at times you want it's going to take some time for you to feel if at all a couple of months because don't forget we're trying to change a habit that have been cultivated all our life for years, especially very early on that we are totally disconnected. Some people are really afraid of your anger. What shall we do? How can we do? They're going to deal with that. So I'm trying to give them exercises not only in my sessions, but also in their own life. Okay. Journaling is a powerful tool again very soon. Conflict, there is a disagreement, you have to make a decision, you're feeling uncomfortable, or even somebody that obviously, again, didn't provide you one of these unmet needs Stay there, don't react, right, you see what is happening in your mind, in your sensations in your body, and register, try to write it, you need to develop that aspect again. So you try to pose, you stop, you kind of like really try to take your time. And that's not easy. The moment that you feel agitated. So again, it is a practice that people need to cultivate and finding opportunities to do that. And that's not an easy task.

Kristen

But I take this idea of water vulnerability on the podcast to give people permission to do vulnerability in their own lives. I was using my Journal yesterday, because I'm a big believer in getting underneath what's going on. And I felt really sad. And I couldn't identify like, Why do I feel sad, it was really one of those. But it was coming across as kind of agitation, like a little irritable, I was like, I wasn't mean, I was just like, short, I was like, you're kind of driving me crazy. And I was looking underneath, I was like, okay, so I put some music on, which can help me access kind of a little more exploratory, or you can do it silently, whatever works for you that just being with I spend some time just journaling and letting the emotion come out. In sometimes when we're with people doing your breathing, kind of feeling your feet on the floor being mindfully present. And then sometimes you might need to take some space to get some clarity by yourself. Either way, whatever works for you. And the more curiously, I held compassion for myself. And that part of me that was sad. It didn't have to know why I just needed to have compassion, which was the unmet need of empathy, that to feel acknowledgement and feel seen and heard. So it was like, What am I needing, oh, I'm needing some compassion right now and not shame myself for being a little irritable, or I shouldn't be that way. Or we do that we talk negatively about ourselves, we're like, you shouldn't feel what just shame shitting on ourselves, right? And I knew I was like, Oh, you're just really don't want yourself to be anything but shiny and happy in that's just not realistic. So I gave myself that compassion for that part of me that felt like, oh, you need to have it more together. And I wanted to say that to share that for their practical step of you know, we can say journaling. But what does that really mean? I mean, my journal, I was like, I feel like I should be irritable, and then the compassionate part was able to come through and say, No, it's okay. Now, if I need to own something and take responsibility for it, I can circle the waggon back and apologise and process it if need be. Was it to that extent? I mean, I didn't think I checked in with everybody that I know are good. So when we say journaling, people are good, I want to do that. I know that doesn't work for me opening up and see if that could possibly work. Try it out. Try it on. What are some of the other most important tools that you teach people to be friendly anger, to start really connecting to it? What is probably your number one most important tool that you teach?

Moshe

I don't know if it's number one, I can tell you a couple of things. But I think I liked the example that you brought, because I think what many people are missing, I think even as therapists, again, how we can assess therapists and make the clients meeting themselves wherever they are, we have a lot of gentleness and even for we say, I need to feel no you don't, this is hard. Take your time. You might be not feeling it right now. It's okay. Because again, the judgement of ourselves that is kind of building up. So you have to understand, okay, I had things in my history that I'm carrying, it's not that I'm happy about that, I need to embrace it, I need to work with what I have and gently move through the process, no rush, we've responsibility non judgmental and compassion. That's what you've done. And you try to access that through V stall. Now, obviously, I mean, the number one tool, it's ultimately it's really kind of like pausing and stopping and I love Viktor Frankl search for meaning book and his idea of kind of like, which says something like in the space between the stimulus and response, there is a gap in this gap lies our freedom. So if we can really try to find this gap and extend that by nanoseconds, versus where can we tap in internally rather than externally rather than be reacting because this is where our freedom lies. Now, it takes time because the tendency is automatic reaction to blame ourselves, or to attack somebody else. Supposing feeling it and later on understanding what our needs, and ultimately being directing this need to what I call creating values. And I developed that concept of the call compassionate warrior. How can we apply that to create value based on the warrior is the one that really fight for justice for wholeness, but what we're missing many times how can we do that in a compassionate way in a gentle way to allow

Moshe

Whereas in our self, and ultimately, once we understand, you know, try to understand ourselves try to understand our needs, how can we create value from that, we also have to understand the stories that we created. And I create, you know, try to create, how can we create a compassionate narrative reframing in a compassionate way. So ultimately, we are really kind of creating value route that rather than destruction. So again, the reframing, compassionate reframing is another tool that that provide that. And ultimately, I mean, there are other tools like cost benefit analysis, because ultimately, we have to understand what do we do in the long run to benefit us and others rather than reacting in the short term, that we habitually have been trained for so many years? How can we stop and analyse that and deliberately doing it in a way that the intention going to lead to love to caring, it's such a powerful tool that it can take a little bit to start really befriending because you're like, Ah, I'm afraid if I'm compassionate to myself, I'm gonna enable myself. Yeah. What is interesting is that to every side versus the other side, and I do believe in a balanced and proportional way of responding, and I think our Restore is my guru Khalid, you know, one of the greatest philosopher, and he said something about anger, to be angry is easy, but to be angry with the right time with the right person at the right moment, at the right degree, that is not easy. And if we can cultivate all these philosophy, when responding to anger, temper our temper, being non judgmental, think compassionately, and ultimately act based on a revered truism of the compassionate warrior, then we'll create value for all. So the balance respond to me is the key to everything. And here's the other question I have that I think is really an important one. We don't talk about alcohol substances, and how that impacts anger. Talk to me about how that can impact anger and emotions and unmet needs. I talked about what are the factors that leads to anger. So very, obviously, the thoughts, the feeling the history, but let's be honest, I mean, we are a chemical, biological human being. So obviously, I'm in very original genetics disposition, that and there are some people that are more prone to be angry than others. But obviously, we all know that any kind of like drugs, or alcohol, chemicals in our body affecting our mood. So it can make us a short term, it can make us numb. So we need to consider that because it's covering up or even expanding that to a extreme degree. And we have to pay attention to that. I mean, not once, I know when people are really drinking alcohol or drugs, I mean, Anger can amplify or at the same time, you can repress it. But then in both cases, it's you're not in touch with your own feeling. And you can't create that space between stimulus and response. That because you're more in the brainstem, so it kind of takes that prefrontal cortex is offline, and there's not the space typically, or you're so repressed that you you're really not responsive. It's just suppressing it into your body. I'm also curious trauma in anger, because we know trauma can really impact how you see yourself how you see the world in those four needs, and your framework can be greatly impacted. So how does trauma if someone's had abuse, neglect, sexual abuse? Maybe they've had something traumatic, like a fire or a cane, a tornado, whatever that is, that's impacted their development? How does that play into anger? I do think while we talk about trauma, and again, it's also a question of a definition, talking about sexual abuse, serious neglect, emotional abuse, the framework applies to all I do think that different degrees in that and at times, we don't have necessarily to talk about trauma, which is much harder, extreme way of any kind of problems and challenges that we face in our life. We as kids, we always going to have unmet needs, why were crying, obviously when it's consistent when there are some abuse that's amplified, but you know, we can be normal human being, that are really having some pains. And when we create stories, oh, people don't love us, when we curate covers on top of covers, to really block ourselves from having that pain. We're creating and developing the strategies to avoid that pain, which later on hinder us from really getting what we want, which is love, ultimately, now, obviously, what you're saying, I do look at drama and kind of harder way of dealing with the people that so require a greater level of war. And again, no feelings, separation fear, really, at an extreme level. Many experts in the trauma field that really trying to access that, but just on a spectrum, but the framework to me allows you to deliver that what

Moshe

Ever level, just a greater level of work when it comes to trauma, which is more extreme? I think your definition of trauma is what happens inside of you, not what happens to you. I think that is such a big understanding of trauma. Absolutely. To some people, you know, certain event can really trigger trauma and two hours or not, then we have to go into the individual story, and the vendor consequences that really elicit that it's so very, very hard to separate it, but ultimately, it's within you. Yes, thank you. We'll make out of that. Yeah. And I think the four pillars of the framework of what you're teaching with what is the unmet need? Because that's what I believe is the truth of what was the unmet need? What is the unmet need, and you diving in with curiosity and compassion, to get the clarity, and then how to someone to kind of bring it full circle, meet that need? Are those unmet needs? I think the idea is, first of all, to come out from the position that not all our needs are going to be met. Even just the question, How can I meet my needs? It's kind of how do you put that you can do the best you can to ask for your needs. Now you can try to aspire that your the environment or the partners that you live with, will try to meet your needs. But then if it's not, what do you do with that? How do you deal with the unmet need, I don't want to even to create the story that we don't love me, we don't care about me because you need ultimately, to do the best you can to see what's going on on ultimately sounds like almost like an extreme that we are alone in the sward. We are social beings relying on others as kids, but now we are an adult, we can ask for our needs. But ultimately, if we don't get it from the outside, how can we develop that capacity to deal with the situation with the pain I would call with the pain but not suffering not to create a greater level of suffering. And to me, it's goes back to ultimately accept their reality as it is being at peace with that reality. Rather than fighting their reality, the moment that we don't get what we want, if we are fighting it, we are losing it. So how can we stay with that? Do the best we can to change it and to get what we want. But if not, how can we okay, we feel the pain? It's disappointing. You don't like that? Okay, what can I do with that right now? How can I be at peace? With the discomfort with the disappointment with the pain, but not to make it suffering? No to make all the stories, the narrative? And the shame and the guilt to do that? And that's a practice? Yes. Thank you so much. This was so helpful. Where can people find you? If they want to buy your book? They want to know more about you? How can they find you? They have my website, which is spiral to grow.com. It has all the information also. And obviously, I mean, if everybody gonna go to Amazon, I mean, we put Angular as your compass. So put my name will share its own Ville, they'll be able to see my book. Yeah, I love to hear people giving me feedback. I always love to learn and improve and change. And I hope it has to provide some kind of value. For sure it will. Anger is your compass is like I think in terms of the title, I think it's an invitation back to yourself, to do more exploration, to get more curious about those unmet needs. And to build practices to offer yourself compassion, tenderness, you get to understand who you are, you get to acknowledge and validate yourself. And to me, that creates more security within yourself. So then you're not seeking it. And that's icing on the cake. You're not desperate for someone else to give it to you because you've given it to yourself. And that's just a bonus when someone else can offer it to you. Yeah, definitely. I always say anger is your compass in your is your teacher. Yes. And he's going to come up again, again again in your life until you will learn each lesson. And hopefully you can internalise that and understand, Okay, what's the message that anger sends me what exactly is happening here. And hopefully you can learn the right message and use it in a way that you can create value for yourself and others. What is it trying to tell you? Was it trying to show you Yes, it's such an important piece to this journey of life. So thank you so much for your work you're doing in the world. And I encourage everyone to go get anger is your compass and I appreciate you sharing all your wisdom and compassionate inquiry to how to heal and find true meaning and purpose in your life. So thank you so much for being on the close the chapter podcast. Thank you so much, Kristen.

Kristen

Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sense sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button, too. Be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or family member. For more information about how to get connected visit Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice b o ice.com. Thanks and have a great day.