Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Kristen
Welcome to this week's Close the Chapter podcast. I am so grateful you're joining me for this important episode on what we need to unlearn to feel better about ourselves. We're looking at that not good enough story that we tell ourselves all the time. When we get into a shame spiral or we really feel like something's wrong with us. What do we have to unlearn to get to the other side. So before I introduce you to my guest, be sure to grab the free journal. It's absolutely free at kristendboice.com/freeresources. You'll want that as how to unlearn our conditioning, and feel better about who you are as a person and become more of yourself. Follow along on social media on Instagram at Kristen D Boice. Feel free to tag me I love it when you tag me. Share what you're getting out of the episode. Feel free to share this episode with a friend tag a friend on Instagram or Facebook at Kristen D Boice. And share how you're feeling. What did you get out of this episode. So let me introduce you to my very special guest today. Dina Scippa is a gender equality specialist turns certified life coach and founder of enough labs. She supports women and girls and coaching on the intersections of leadership and confidence is a seasoned trained facilitator and is invited to speak regularly on radical self acceptance, women's empowerment and being enough she hosts the internationally chartered podcast embracing enough which showcases the stories of women and girls and their journey to feel confident. The podcast explores the stories that influence our collective experience. And unpacks what it takes to embrace the belief that we are enough just the way we are.

Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast I am so excited for my dear friend to be on the show today, she shares with so much transparency, vulnerability that helps you relate to her journey, and what she's really doing with taking pain and turn it into purpose and meaning and making a difference for so many women. So Dina, I am so grateful you're here with us today. And you're on the show. I've been looking forward till we've been kind of saying this. You been on the show I was on your podcast. Now you're gonna be on my podcast. Yeah. So welcome, Dina to the close to Chapter podcast.

Dina

Kristen, I am so honoured you have no idea. You know, I'm one of your biggest fans. I think you're absolutely brilliant. And I feel like I'm in session with you every time I chime in, and listening to the episodes on this incredible podcast, thank you for having me, it is such a joy to be in your space.

Kristen

I'm just grateful we've been put on this journey together. Like I get teary eyed just because when you find people that are so real, and so authentic, it's a gift. And it's not put on, it's not to get something back. It's just you be new. In my nervous system, whenever I'm around you, or anyone that's really authentic and real. my nervous system goes. It's like a breath, you're able to take a breath. And so thank you.

Dina

Thank you for saying that. And we're gonna get emotional in this episode this early.

Kristen

I think we are, I think we're just gonna be doing all the fields, which is what I tell people like that is the way we connect is through our emotions and through that vulnerability. And it's not always easy. But when we can just let it flow, then so much comes from that. And that's what I've watched in your journey. Tell me? How did you get to this journey? Have you really are in a niche of helping people work through not feeling good enough and unlearning things that don't work for them? How did you get here to this niche?

Dina

It's crazy. You ask the question, what's your story? And I feel I asked that same question to people I speak with. And it's such a complex question, because it's something that's like still evolving as your answer. I'm in the question. I feel the work that I'm doing as a coach. And having created the space of enough Labs was really my life's calling. But it took me going through quite possibly some of the toughest challenges of my life, both personally and professionally, to be able to give myself the permission to even show up in this way. I take it back really to January 2023 months before the pandemic, I think a lot of people were thinking, Okay, this is going to be the decade this is going to be different, there's going to be an opportunity to step out and show up and be really clear about what you want. I think there's just some excitement around a new decade. And I had already been teetering inside of a career in corporate, as a gender advisor working for an international development consulting firm, feeling like I was looking around and saying, I don't think this is enough. And it was hard to admit that to myself, because I had worked so long and so hard to get to what I thought was my dream job. And so I was squarely in the work that I wanted to do, and be a part of, I was passionate about it felt mission driven. I had travelled by that point to over 30 countries had spoken to hundreds of women and girls around the world from places like Afghanistan, South Sudan, Rue Jordan, and I was able to advise projects on how to respond better to the needs of women and girls, but also other historically marginalised groups. In my quiet moments, I sort of felt like I was screaming into the ether. So conceptually, the work around female empowerment and women's leadership was exactly where I wanted to be. But I felt like this image was in my mind of shovelling the stuff on the hill and having it just roll back. And I sort of had this watershed moment, if you will, where I said, I just want to have a deeper impact. I don't know what that looks like. I'm not sure how to go about it, but I know that there's some deeper calling. So I started to get curious now I'm speaking to coaches and learning more and through my own personal development journey. And just getting really honest with what was the type of work that I wanted to be involved in? How did I want to feel? But on a deeper level Christian, I was in this big question of who am I really, because I know that perhaps you can relate to this based on our previous conversations, for the majority of my adult life. And looking back into my adolescence, I have become adept at being whatever someone else wanted me to be. I am a recovering people pleaser, and perfectionist, and have always sought comfort, and being able to anticipate what other people needed. It was my superpower. And so I felt like being able to work in international development was like the Holy Grail. Because there was no shortage of needs, there was no shortage of space that I needed to convince myself that I had to jump in with the solution or work like hell to try and get people to pay attention how important this was. So professionally, I was sort of my perfectionist tendencies, my people pleasing tendencies were like, on full alert. And then in my personal relationships, and in my friendships in my marriage at the time, even in my family relationships, there was still that swirling energy where I felt like I had to be it all to everyone. But somehow along the way, I felt like I lost myself. I didn't even know who that person was, it was sort of this watershed moment, like I said, where everything kind of came into sharp focus, but also didn't make sense at all. And I got really clear that my confidence, and really getting a clearer sense of my own self worth was just so foggy. And so as you can recall, like anyone listening three months before, the moment, when the world shifted, I could no longer rely on my old coping mechanisms and keep running, and keep busying my calendar to stay away from these feelings. All of a sudden, it was like March 10, I think when everything officially went down, and I had to be with my thoughts, and I couldn't run and I couldn't busy myself, and I just really had to sit with the discomfort of the question of like, who am I at my core, and who am I becoming, and that was really sort of the beginning of my own own learning journey, but also in what I was trying to create through enough labs and working as a coach. So it was a bumpy road. And the work that I'm doing feels so aligned, even though when I think about it today, and I'm sharing with you, I didn't have a clear picture of what it was going to look like, I knew how I wanted to feel. And I had some semblance of who I wanted to become in the process. But I had no clarity, I had no blueprint. But I knew enough that the things that I was grappling with, and the feelings that I was struggling with, were resonating deeply with women of my age, women who were older than me, women who were in their 20s, and even adolescent girls, because it all comes back to the research that I came across that inspired enough labs in the first place, which I've shared with you. And it's a seminal piece of research that says a girl's confidence peaks at age nine. And then from that point from 10 to 12. It's a nosedive by 30%, and her confidence, and then between the ages of 13 to 15. That's another sharp drop to another 60%. So I read that and I remember just feeling this overwhelming sense of ache, because I don't know if you or your listeners can relate but like you feel so strongly that you have to do something, and you have absolutely no idea of where to start. Yeah, but you know that you can't unsee or unfilled what you've just come across reading that body of work, shifted things for me and put things into such sharp focus to say, I'm tired of not feeling like I have any space to go to, to just be honest about what I'm feeling. I feel like I'm surrounded by a cacophony of voices that everyone's trying to put on airs that they're okay. And I just want to scream that I am not. And then I had this conversation with you like a year and a half ago. And I'm like, Kristin understands it. It's just been so many moments of just getting the affirmation back. I'm not alone. And there are so many women and girls who feel this way. And even more. So what I think is so interesting, given my work in international development is this is happening globally. So that's a very long winded answer, but that's me in a nutshell. Yeah, I

Kristen

think you said something really important that we think everybody else is okay and doing okay, we look at social media and everything looks okay. Or we look at the neighbours or whomever we're looking at co workers. And we think that their crap together I don't, and they're scared to say I feel alone. I feel less than I feel shame. I feel unlovable. I feel unworthy. I don't feel good enough. How did you get the courage to start voicing the reality of how you felt?

Dina

I honestly feel so stumped by that question. But the only way I think I can put it into words is that it felt like it was bubbling up in me. And I couldn't not share it. There was this raw vulnerable need to share openly and honestly, with what I felt like I was suppressing for the better part of two decades. And I felt I like so many people was doing the exact same thing for years before I even thought about launching enough labs and being on social media and sharing this message in a very different way. I felt that person who was scrolling on social media, trying to figure out how everyone's life looked so put together and I felt like I was my insides were on fire. I could not grapple with the idea of being comfortable in my skin feeling like, everything was okay for me, because I felt this perpetual panic that I was behind. Everyone's life was going so much further than mine. They were having babies buying homes, doing these dream vacations that they were sharing on social media, they look happy, they looked satisfied, they looked joyful. And I felt like I was just pretending. And I've spent so many years in the muck of trying to hide that. And the way that I tried to hide it was with this desperate penchant for over achievement and perfectionism and making sure everything looked great on the outside. But please don't see the cracks. Don't look too closely. Because if you breathe on me the wrong way, everything crumble. And I think there was just the courage was always there. I just think I like so many people in realising that there's something deeper for me to share. Now, the next hurdle is oh, God, what will everyone think?

Kristen

Exactly? That's where I was going.

Dina

And then the whole piece around, well, will it be good enough? Well, who am I to be listened to? And then you really think about not just the invisible people, it's the my family, my friends, people I've worked with, Oh, my God, I'm exposing myself. This is terrifying. So it's like, I'm stumped. Because I'm looking back. Like, how did I do it?

Kristen

Yeah, I remember when just we were talking before we got on started going live. Recording this was you can swing from I'm not enough to Ooh, people are gonna think I'm too much. And I remember this one memory. My mom, I don't know, if I shared this on your podcast, I can't think I did deny your everywhere. And I was like, Oh, my I wanted to crawl in a hole. I can still feel it. I wanted to crawl in a hole. And I was like, That's my worst nightmare. That's why I didn't do what I do. That's why I never wanted to put myself out there. I didn't want people to think, Oh, you're everywhere you think you're this and that. So talk to me about this not feeling good enough. But then feeling like I can be too much, or people are gonna think I'm all about myself or whatever. Talk to me about that.

Dina

Yeah, there's a pendulum I was sharing with you that I feel like I like many women swing between. And it's this idea of Oh, my God, what will people think from a place of? Who the hell do you think you are that you can create a platform and share? So it's all of the feelings of I'm not good enough. And then you go through the list of, I've got to make sure my words, my qualifications, my presentation is airtight so that no one can say you're not good enough. Except you're chasing this never ending horizon because you're just feeling like you constantly have to, well, this has to be perfect. This has to be perfect. So no one can poke holes in what I'm sharing with the world. So vulnerably. So it's this constant feeling right? That you're thinking you're on display for the world to critique you. And that's a vulnerable space to be in, and the ways in which I find as women that we're looking to make sure that the thing that we've decided to share is bullet proof is literally exhausting, because it will never what is good enough. That's clients of mine about this. Recently, I was talking to someone who was saying, I just want to know I'm good enough in my role. Okay, so what would that look like? Positive feedback? Okay, we just talked a couple minutes ago about you getting positive feedback, great feedback, actually, during your performance evaluation. So was that not enough positive feedback? Well, yeah, I guess so. Well, what would be enough? I'm not sure. So you're perpetually in this place of never sitting comfortably. I think I'm good enough. I think I've got there. I've finally arrived. Because it's this perpetual feeling swinging to the other side of Am I too much, Christian. I had the same exact situation meeting up with someone who I'd only met virtually we go out to dinner. So excited to see this person. We're like catching up on things because we haven't seen each other in person but it's also been several months. And as a new business owner your whole life. identity can get washed up inside of what you're trying to create. And the first thing she said to me, so what's going on with you, Dina, and don't talk to me at all about enough labs? I don't want to hear about it. I mean, everywhere I look, I all I see is enough labs. And I felt this small because then that's it's the fear of not only are people going to poke holes in what I'm creating and saying, I'm not good enough, or who the hell does she think she is? Then it's, you're too much. You're selfish, you're obsessed. This is a vanity project. You saying it out loud, you're like, Wait, why am I doing this again, of course, there's no other choice for me, because I'm so aligned in what I am doing. And I think it's so important. And I say this to my clients all the time, but really getting grounded in reality, because we have this tendency to hyper focus on the negativity and the slant that our brain is looking for to confirm that bias that the deepest, most insecure parts of ourselves. And so I think sometimes for me as I share, if I'm feeling like I'm not good enough, I then look for evidence to support that, because I don't feel necessarily safe with trying to calm my own nervous system and say, You know what, you're doing a great job, look at everything you've created, instead of but what about this, this, this and this? Yeah, it's such a relatable, universal experience.

Kristen

It is I want to share a story about you and I, because we met through our book proposal coach, and by the way, I have not finished my book proposal. And I'm working through shame and not feeling good enough around that by nurturing my self and saying you've had a lot going on. And it's okay, which is what I recommend to clients, you become the parent that you wanted the nurturing, loving, compassionate parent, when I first met you, we had a zoom, was it 2020, it was 2020.

Dina

It was end of 2020, maybe early 2021. And we're on

Kristen

a zoom, and you're like, I don't even know what I'm doing. And I was like, Oh, me, too. I connected with you. Because you were your authentic self. And you're like, I just don't even know like, I stuck. And I was like, Yeah, me too. It was such a relatable moment, because you're sharing it, it feel good enough, basically. And I was like me, too, in that moment of you being transparent, and real and authentic. And I'm looking around, and everybody's like, I got my chapters done. And I did it. I did it. And I'm like, That's awesome. I wasn't thinking less of them. But my shame was saying, Well, why don't you have yours done? Like, what's wrong with you, when you came in was yourself. That's what you're doing on social media, which is not being in your work that you're doing with clients, because then they feel safe to show up as their authentic self and their shame parts can come to light. I would feel so comfortable going, I haven't done this that and you're like, oh, yeah, you're offering empathy and compassion, which is a cornerstone of your work, you being authentic is the cornerstone of your work. And I think that's the discovery you made? Is that it?

Dina

It really is. And it's been such a journey, because I think when I look back even to like the original, or early days of social media, and I was so buttoned up and wanting to make sure everything was perfect to now like jumping on with a cup of coffee and my robe, no makeup on, like, Hey, guys, what's going on today? I really think about as women our relationship to shame. What does it mean when we're experiencing shame about what hasn't been done yet? Or why it doesn't look like others or moving into spaces where we feel less than for whatever reason, that space of the book proposal group was a space that I was terrified of walking into. Because I've held a long story of not being a great writer, people not caring about what I have to say. And clearly everyone else in this group is far more qualified, and far more worthy to be writing a book and undoubtedly getting the book deal. I'm just going to be the one client of Rochelle, who's not going to get their book deal. You're gonna have spent all this money and nothing good is going to work out for you. The depths of shame, and all of that stuff. All of that story comes from a place it comes from years of feeling not good enough. It comes from years of feeling like you have something to prove inside of every space. You are trying to navigate from my very first job outside of college to being in my master's programme to being in a serious long term relationship to navigating being a stepmom. I mean, there's so many spaces I somehow have mustered the courage to still be in these spaces, and yet simultaneously still feel like when will it feel good enough? When will I no longer feel like an imposter. And the reality that I share with clients all the time is that, of course, you feel like an imposter because you've never done this before. So I tried to extend that same level of grace to myself, because of course, inside of an incubator programme of sorts of aspiring authors, I would feel like an imposter because I've never written a book that says, owned. But instead of shaming myself for like, gosh, my proposal is imperfect. Gosh, I still haven't landed a deal. Gosh, like no one wants me. Gosh, there are all these reasons why I'm not. How about I applaud myself for the fact that I was resourceful to get myself into that programme consistent to show up and write the proposal. I don't know about for you, Kristen. But I've written my proposal three different times. And I'm frankly, still not convinced that the proposal as it stands will actually be the book. But it's like, give yourself some credit for where you are and what you've come through, instead of constantly looking towards the gap that still remains to be filled.

Kristen

And that voice is going to be there. It's a small, younger part. Yeah, you'd feel like you're an imposter. You feel like what do you have to offer that everybody else isn't doing that everybody else has got their book deals, and I go, Oh, honey, but you have so much to offer. Just being who you are in your life experiences and talking to her like I would want my Compassionate loving parent to do to me, and that's a learn thing over time. It doesn't always flow for me, right.

Dina

It's also feeling like a bit of an impostor, because you don't have evidence of what that necessarily might feel like maybe those listening are for you, Christian, I know we've talked about this, just that relationship and that bond with a parent may not have seen. I know for me, I didn't have that language necessarily modelled from an early age. So I think when I speak to that voice, for me, that is trying to really what she's trying to do is protect me, I know that she is trying to see and anticipate the things down the road that could potentially be a threat. So I totally support you and side of speaking to her with a nurturing tone. I also have to recognise that she's just there for the long haul. I've given her name, she has a whole identity. Her name is Roxy. She's my inner critic, and she wears thick black eyeliner. She's a chain smoker, she wears a tonne of leather, all black, and she's super negative. And there she is. And I know that she's a voice that I've learned over the years to have right by my side, so that I never get hurt. So I'm always hyper vigilant against the things that might knock me off my foundation. And I think whatever approach you can use to self soothe is so critical for your lifetime. Like, it's not just okay, I've done that, like she is there for you. Or even with you. Yeah,

Kristen

I was thinking about my voice. I really think it's my mother. I mean, we just say who is living in your head who's taking up a residence? Yeah, my daughter just got out of an unhealthy relationship. And I'm like you have let him come into your head and take up a mortgage and space at a residence and you don't recognise it's him. But now that's who was living inside of your home. I love that you named yours. Like whatever works for you. Mine is my mom, I can recognise that inner critic, and go okay, she also had an inner critic she also had, right, it's generational.

Dina

it's generational. I think back to what the voice in my grandmother's hadn't must have sounded like, what the voice in my mom's head sounded like because my grandmother didn't have access to emotional language or being able to name things beyond survival, or it's just something you should do. And what that creates generationally is this imprint on you, of my inner critic is absolutely informed by my mom, she's just taken on this super dramatic alter a form of her my mom used to smoke, but she wasn't in black eyeliner and leather. But she definitely had that critical tone. And I also recognise that the critical tone is oftentimes informed by your experience. So I think it's a process. I know that that might not sound really helpful for people. But I think really reconciling with this non enoughness. I get the question often, when do you feel enough? And I feel it's just a question that makes me ache, because I know that the planet would be an entirely different place if women really wholeheartedly embrace their enoughness but I'm also not naive to think that there aren't a million extenuating circumstances, the relationship you have with your mom toxic relationships that you may have been with intimate partners, Horrible Bosses that just continue to put you down and be condescending for friendships that didn't honour you and see you and create safe spaces for you. And just that relationship that you have in the mirror, there's just so many extenuating circumstances, then you don't have to even leave your house to look for evidence of what the world is projecting onto you to confirm you're not enoughness. And so you have to fight like hell to counter all of these messages that are telling that to you that are reinforcing it. Because we're fighting an uphill battle. I don't think it's impossible. But I do think it takes real work and real intention, and to not constantly be seeking out the evidence to confirm the worst parts of what you think about yourself.

Kristen

I agree. 100%. Yeah, what are some of the things you've had to unlearn some of the key things you've had to unlearn? I would

Dina

have to say one of the top things has everything to do with self acceptance and self love. I was in a long term marriage, obviously, long term relationship with a partner that I felt invisible with, there was a lot of gaslighting a lot of your being too much. And that experience really shaped my self talk. And I remember and one of the biggest lessons that I've had to unlearn is that being chosen doesn't necessarily equate with things being or things making sense, or like you finally arrived, that sense of belonging, I attached being chosen and more specifically being married as being equated with belonging, because I saw all of my friends get married and have kids and I didn't want to be the outlier that didn't have access to that experience. So I feel like that's the number one thing I've had to unlearn is that being married and being part of this club that everyone seems to be a part of doesn't reinforce your sense of belonging, you have to make sure you belong to yourself, first and foremost. And I think when you're someone who's adept at trying to be all things, and do all things, for the comfort of others, you might lose yourself inside a process. And so that sense of self abandonment becomes pretty insidious. You've actually been doing it but saying, Oh, no, no, that's not what I'm doing. But you really have been. So I would say, that's the first thing. I've really had to unlearn my relationship to failure, it connects to marriage, because two years ago, made the hard decision to get divorced, the hardest thing of coming to that decision was, I'm going to be a failure, I failed at marriage. And I was trying so hard to make it all work, that you reach a point where your body and your mind and your heart are just like, Stop, you can't keep doing this. And it doesn't make sense. And everything feels like it's going to internally explode. And you have to be so grounded in your own knowing of self and what you want, and what matters to you to even make the toughest decisions. And to not see it through a lens of I failed. But rather I chose me. And I don't know what's on the other side of it. But I'm not gonna sit here and just continuously beat myself up for saying, I didn't try hard enough, or I wasn't good enough, or whatever the relationship to you're failing at something, I have a much better relationship with failure. Now, I have a much better relationship with rejection, and being able to try things. Because I think I would say the third thing that I'll share with you today is and the last thing that I would say that I've unlearned is really redefining my relationship to expectations and wanting a certain outcome. I practice non attachment with everything. So now three years into my business, I have no problem putting myself out there for conferences, and I applied to be a TED Talk speaker, I apply for these big, big things, writing a book proposal, who the hell does she think she is? And I'm practising everyday non attachment because the rejection or the lack of response that I'm getting has no bearing on how enough I feel about myself. And I'm not saying it's an easy process. I'm not saying oh, I just skipping through lavender fields every day feeling so enough, because it's not true. I have my moments. But what I've noticed, and I'm super proud of myself inside of it is that I don't stay there forever. The periods in which I can kind of come back up or shorter. Like, oh, I'm a little disappointed about that. Definitely thought my application was strong. I'll try again. I'll keep trying when it keeps showing up because my message is bigger than not being accepted to a TED Talk application, a TED speaker programme or not being selected as one of the keynote speakers for a conference or not getting a book deal from a particular agent that I wanted to work with. None of that has bearing on and how enough I am. But more importantly, the message that I'm trying to share, because there is a much bigger calling that you can't get so wrapped up in these small details. And I think that's what keeps me grounded.

Kristen

That's so good. How did you work through unlearning? people pleasing? And I'm sure that's an ongoing.

Dina

Oh, that is the most ongoing part. Kristin, do you have any suggestions?

Kristen

Oh, yeah, I know. So embedded from childhood,

Dina

so embedded. And I think it's also super embedded with the experience of girls. And I don't mean to call this out as a gender issue. But I think as girls were socialised to be perfect, pleasing, and accommodating, really, at all costs. So I remember receiving a lot of messages of like, make sure you're being nice to people, and then graduating into the adult years of don't be difficult, like go along with the way if you're in a work situation, you don't want to be named as the person who's unwilling to go the distance you've got to pay your dues or navigating relationships, people pleasing for me shows up in every space, every single space. And I think the unlearning piece around people pleasing is has everything to do with how comfortable are you with recognising what you're okay with and what you're not okay with, which is a boundary and as people pleasers, the line continues to move, move and move and move. I think the first step in unlearning people pleasing as you have to get curious about yourself and know what is your boundary? What are your limits? How and how comfortable are you communicating those to people. And then the toughest part is because what people pleasers tell themselves is that if I say what I'm not okay with, or say what I am okay with, that runs the risk of me disappointing someone. And if I disappoint someone, then my worst fear will be realised, which is no one will love me. And it's a dark thought. Because if you're used to getting the dopamine hit from someone being happy with you love you be impressed by you do all these things. And then somehow you're the reason for taking that away. Being in that space up. But I love myself is a beautiful thought. And I work every day inside of that feeling. But it is hard. If you're someone who struggles with people pleasing, it's hard to break that pattern, I think, and I'm learning that is 1,000% my life's work.

Kristen

Yeah, I do believe we all have a life's work for us, because people pleasing was a protector part to this, we thought from blame, shame, judgement, rejection, being alone, being hurt, people being upset with us. And so we're like, oh, if I give that up, then I'm at risk to being hurt to being disconnected from people alone. And when we find out that can happen anyways, realise that that doesn't really protect us, it can be maladaptive as an adult, because then we're actually feeling more alone. Because we're afraid to say how we really feel, rather than, you know, I'm gonna say how I feel in this relationship, I value truth. And so if you're transparent and truthful with loving grace, then this is probably going to be a no go for me. Different mindset,

Dina

completely different mindset. And also really understanding how difficult it is to unlearn these thought patterns that have been, they've created pathways in your brain to say, this is where I'm comfortable. So to do the opposite of that feels in your brain really scary. I would much rather deal with the fallout of how uncomfortable it is to be accommodating and pleasing and do whatever someone needs me to do, then the opposite. And I have no idea what the reaction is gonna be. It's so interesting how our coping strategies as children stay with us into adulthood. And the way that they show up requires an entirely different part of ourselves to reconcile but also make sense of and realise where it's actually doing more harm than it is good. Yes. And how can I think that takes a lot of honesty,

Kristen

I think you're spot on. And it's scary and petrified. And in relationships, romantic relationships. Like when we decide I can't function like that anymore. It's scary because it's feels more predictable and say yes,

Dina

even though you can spend years with your therapist like you talking about how much pain you've been in and being a people pleaser, where you're like, Okay, well, if we had actually considered maybe doing something different,

Kristen

exactly. And then the courage to actually honour that part that says, This isn't working, and this isn't healthy for me. I lost my voice. I lost myself and what do I have to do to get myself back and you've been on the voyage, that journey of getting yourself back and coming home? It's like a homecoming to yourself. And that's what you do you help people come home to who they really are. Are and live in that freedom. Okay, I want to keep going until we go. Okay, so how can people find you like if they want to find they want more Deena in their life, and they want to work with you? How can they find you?

Dina

So I am on all the social media platforms, I'm most active on Instagram. So you can look me up on Instagram at enough labs, and learn about the mission and the programmes and services that we offer it enough labs that www.un labs.com. And wanted to share that depending on when this show airs, we are actually starting the very first cohort of 2023, of the unlearning Lab, which is going through my signature process of identifying what's the story that you've been telling yourself? What's the burden you've been carrying? Who are you being like, Who are you at your core, really getting honest, radically honest with yourself about the things that you love what brings you joy, and then we work into really getting clear on the woman that you want to become. So it's a 10 week process. I get so excited every time I offer it, and I am going to be talking a lot about it on social media. So if you want to be a part of the conversation, I would welcome anyone who wants to join.

Kristen

Fantastic when does it start? Or the 15th Okay, so this will air next week. So if you're listening to this on a replay anyways, you can always find more information about Dina She has great social media, so go follow her on Instagram, tick tock, still yesterday on tick tock,

Dina

I'm still figuring out tick tock. I feel like tick tock is pleased to be more fun, even more fun and more playful. So I consider that my social media playground that I don't show up that a tonne, but it's there. And definitely participating in all of the fun. I'm also on LinkedIn, and Facebook. So wherever you hang out, definitely drop me a line because I think beyond yes, if you want to learn more about the learning lab happy to do that. But also I'm just really interested in being a part of conversations with women who can identify with the message and it always means the most to me to just hear what something meant to you like it did help you in some way. That means more to me than anything.

Kristen

Yes. Thank you Dina. I love you. And I'm so grateful for our time together.

Dina

You yes conversation. I can't wait to talk to you again.

Kristen

Me too. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. For more information about how to get connected visit Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice b o ice.com. Thanks and have a great day.