Kristen

Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing Counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode so be sure to subscribe.

Welcome to this week's Close the Chapter podcast I am so grateful you are joining me today. For this important episode I decided to do an encore episode because one this topic needs to be talked about over and over and over. And two. I am running on little sleep because my daughter had an emergency appendectomy. I can't even talk because I'm sleep deprived. And so I thought what would be a good episode to encore and Nancy Levin who is an expert on boundaries, I thought it would be a great one to bring back. She has written so many books to name a few the art of change a guided journal, jump and your life will appear setting boundaries will set you free. The Ultimate Guide to telling the truth and worthy boost your self worth to grow your net worth. There are so many books. She is a poet authentic speaks from the heart. And I thought it was an important episode. If you did hear it the first time around, which was a couple years ago, it was worth listening to again, she's vulnerable. She gives you helpful tips and strategies on how to have healthy boundaries in your life. If you need extra help, be sure to get the free journal I offer that I use with clients absolutely free at Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice Bo ice.com forward slash free resources, you will get an email to your inbox and then be in the loop of any programmes that I'm offering and 2023. And hopefully you'll get helpful blog posts on all things growth related and mental health. So without further ado, here is my loving conversation. And very helpful one to boot with Nancy Levin. I hope you enjoy. welcome Nancy Levin to the close the chapter podcast. I am so grateful for your time and energy and being here today. So welcome.

Nancy

Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here with you. Yes,

Kristen

I would love for you to introduce yourself to the audience and tell them a little bit about yourself and what you have going on in terms of your latest book, I'm so excited about your book.

Nancy

Sure, my latest book is called setting boundaries will set you free. And as they say we teach what we need to learn. So this book is really the culmination. This is my fifth book. And it's the culmination of all of my books. All the work I've been doing on myself and with my coaching clients really over the past decade specifically, I was the event director at Hay House Publishing for 12 years, I was touring the world with the greatest teachers and thought leaders and authors in the field of self empowerment, self improvement, motivation, wellness. And I always say I had a front row seat and a backstage pass to all of their teachings. But their teachings weren't really able to anchor inside of me until I was in my own crisis. And that crisis occurred in 2008. And it occurred in by way of blowing up my marriage. So I wasn't an 18 year marriage, I was a powerhouse in the world of work. And yet, at home, I was really inside of a cage of my husband's rage. And I was quiet as a mouse, I had no concept of boundaries had no idea that a boundary was something I could even have, let alone even have any idea how to begin setting them. And so I really sublimated all of my wants and needs to bring to life all of his along the way in my marriage. I really ultimately lost myself. My journey of healing of leaving my marriage, my divorce, rebuilding my life, leaving my dream job at Hay House, which it really was to embark on a career of coaching and being an author and teacher and trainer and speaker was a profound journey really into my own voice, my own truth, my own visibility and being able to really stand in my light in that way. You and I never in a million years thought I would ever leave my job. I did. My year long coach certification training was my mentor, the late Debbie Ford, as a way for me to do my own healing for me to really process connect the dots of my life, really understand everything from my childhood that led me into my marriage that led me into my divorce the whole thing. And as the dots were connecting, it really became evident to me that I wanted to do this year long training. And then on the other side of it, I was unrecognisable from the woman I was before. And that's when it really hit me. I want to help other people get free, essentially. And so I went through a process of ultimately leaving my corporate job going out on my own. And here we are,

Kristen

here we are. This sounds like the story of a lot of my clients that are trapped in a marriage where they feel disempowered. They've been people pleasers, they've been trying to gain worth and value by hustling pleasing others being perfect. Tell me about that process for you and your marriage. How you decided was it you that decided to end it? How did that develop?

Nancy

I was the champion people pleaser, Peacekeeper, conflict avoider, not rock, the boater. And I was really presenting this image of perfection to the world. And I was managing the perception of others. So I really only want it to be seen through the lens that I gave you to see me through. And I was living and breathing on external validation. So just constantly chasing all the gold stars. And the thing is that when we're chasing the gold stars, no amount of gold stars will ever be enough to fill the void. Everything that we're seeking externally needs to be resolved internally. First, you mentioned this, and I actually one of my earlier books is called worthy all about the all about the link between self worth and net worth. And that really, when we don't value ourselves, when we believe we're not enough, when we believe we're not good enough, we're also believing that there isn't enough and that we're living in this world of limits, for me was saying before about being able to connect the dots back to my childhood, the most significant event of my life was my brother dying when I was two years old. And he was older, he had been born severely disabled. And essentially, my mother and I've had adult conversations about this, where she really said, I didn't attach to you when you were born because I was waiting to see what was wrong with you. So the imprint at a very early age, began with there must be something wrong with me if I'm under this kind of scrutiny. If I am imperfect, like he is I will die better, I have no needs and be self sufficient, because his needs are more important than mine. All of this gets imprinted at such an early age. And then I'm in a place with my parents where I'm doing everything I can to try to heal a grief in them that can never be healed. And I'm trying to be more than I am. I am not enough. I need to now be two children for them. So this is really what carries me in my life. And then when I ended up meeting, the man I married was literally as if on day one, the moment we met, he said hi, I'm broken. And I said well, great, I will fix you. That was the identity I had I was the rescuer the fixer, the saver, all of that. And I really believed that I would be able, we grew up 180 degrees apart. I believed I could give him a life he didn't have. And in all of this, I just continued to lose myself. It was really a process of being able to tell the truth to myself. First and foremost. This is all documented in other books. So I'll give you the short story. But really what occurred was I was on my way home from one of the Hay House events I had been producing. It was April 12 2008. I was at the San Diego airport about to board the plane and I went through security and once I got through security to my gate, I noticed that a voicemail had come in, I held the phone to my ear and heard my husband's voice say, You better get your ass home. I read your journals, there's hell to pay. And I immediately found myself on my knees at the gate while people were boarding the plane around me. I don't remember getting on the plane. I didn't listen to any voicemail that had come in while I was in the air. I don't even remember getting in the car and on my way back to Boulder from the Denver Airport. And in that moment, however, I had the foresight to at least be able to be truth telling with myself and then I call the dear close friend and told the truth to someone safe and she He was wise in telling me, if you're going to go talk to him, make sure you have an exit strategy. And somewhere to go, she knew I live kitty corner to a hotel, she said, go there, first drop your bags, check in, go speak with him, but at least you'll know you have somewhere to go. And I did exactly that. And as I walked up the stairs to my condo, he was standing inside the door holding four volumes of my journal, I had over 70 volumes. And he was holding four volumes of my journal and said to me, I'm going to make copies of pages and send them to your friends, your family, your sister and your co workers. And let's see what they think when they know the real Nancy. So he really knew that my greatest fear was exposure. And no one knows how to push your buttons like somebody you've been married to for 18 years for a long time. In that moment, I had to get really clear on my choices, I can either just go back to sleep and keep putting on the facade, and keep doing everything I can to stay and be here and make it be okay. Or I can really get about the business of making a major change. And so I will say that it took me two years to leave the marriage. But I left the house that night, and I went to the hotel. And then very early the next morning, he called to say, if you're not home and a half an hour, I'm calling your parents and your sister. And because I knew he wasn't bluffing. And because I knew that it was time to take responsibility for my own life. I called my parents got them both on the phone at the same time and said, it's highly likely we're going to get a divorce. And my mother said, what happened. And I said, Well, I got home last night to discover that he read my journals. And he discovered that I had an affair eight years ago. And my mother said without missing a beat. I'm so sorry to know you've been carrying this around all by yourself for eight years. And in that moment, I knew that the dissolution of my marriage would be the great healing with my mother. And I can tell you now 12 years later it has been, she could see the way in which I was allowing myself to be controlled, manipulated in the anger and the abuse in the rage. My ex husband didn't want to work. I was the breadwinner, the way that I was doing everything to turn myself inside out for him to have a life that he wanted to have that I felt in some way responsible to give him because this is what happens when we don't have boundaries. We don't know the delineation of where we end and someone else begins and we start taking more responsibilities than is ours. And we are actually trying to manipulate and control and manage someone else's experience of over which we have no control. This is an illusion.

Kristen

Exactly. There's so many pieces here. One is people's worst nightmare. Someone's gonna read my journal. I hear that all the time. I'm not gonna write my journal, because someone could read it. And then I can't have anybody read it. So speak into that a little bit.

Nancy

It's true. And like I said, I mean, I had been keeping a journal since I was 11 years old. I will tell you that the day after this occurred, I destroyed every single journal I have. I just wanted no record of anything. So I destroyed every single journal over 70 volumes,

Kristen

like I said, to try to protect yourself, I'm imagining to try

Nancy

to protect myself. And really just I was in shock. I was in shame. I was in fear. There's many pieces of this that don't often talk about. But the next day, he's like, bring me when I was at the hotel, and he was like, You better get over here and I need you to bring your laptop because I'm going through your computer. And because I had no boundaries. I said okay, I would say it took me about a year before I even started keeping any kind of a journal again. And what I did was I kept it. I did it on my laptop, but I kept it on a thumb drive. So it wasn't living on my laptop. It was living on a thumb drive that I basically carried with me everywhere. And then once I was separated and on my own, I started writing in a proper book again,

Kristen

were you afraid to write again? I mean, tell me about that.

Nancy

My whole journey through this healing was around safety around shame around truth. As part of my healing process. I really had to come to terms with understanding the mechanics and the map and the constellation of my life. And then being able to put the pieces together and then being able to be with my truth. Then once I was there, the fear to write was no longer and it wasn't ever really the fear to write it was still about the fear of some kind of being found out or being someone knowing something about me that was only for me.

Kristen

I'm wondering too, because abandonment is such a fear for people. A fear of abandonment, yeah ends up happening without boundaries as we have abandon ourselves recreate the same childhood wound or the same fear that we have because we've abandoned ourselves without the boundaries. It sounds like I'm wondering if that's what that felt like for you

Nancy

completely, I was abandoning myself for the sake of everyone else. And that's really how I lived my life for most of my life.

Kristen

And then so the journey to regain self and no longer abandon yourself began with telling your truth, speaking up for yourself, setting the boundaries, having the courage,

Nancy

having the courage and first really understanding that I even have boundaries, I even have needs I've been spending my whole life disowning any needs or wants or desire. And that was a big piece of this to be able, first of all, the context of really me setting my first boundary was my husband had kicked me out of the house five times the house that I bought and paid for five times, talking about the animate in the scope of less than two years after this happened. And the fifth time, which was January 2010, I did not go back. And that was really the very first life altering and life affirming boundary I set that is so powerful. No, I'm no longer going to try to make this work. My mode had always been about buying love, buy you a truck, buy you a motorcycle, buy you a condo, buy you whatever I can buy you. And so I really had to get clean and clear with like, there's nothing I can buy. There's nothing I even want to buy. All I want now is my freedom. So that

Kristen

became greater than that became more clear to you than the relationship.

Nancy

It wasn't even about the relationship. It was about other people knowing what I did. It was about what will they think of me if they know I had an affair? What will they think of me if they see this perfect marriage blowing up? The my facade of who people saw exactly shattered mean, exactly. It was less about the security of the marriage, it was more about not wanting anyone to know the truth. That's so powerful. Once I was able to set that boundary and not go back and then I was able to be on my own other boundaries were much easier for me to begin setting. But it was still this process, even into the divorce mediation, still not fully clear on what was okay or not okay for me, because I was still in fear, I was still people pleasing, I was still in that place, and ended up agreeing to a lot of things that were not ultimately okay with me, and yet have to stand in the responsibility that I made a choice. I said yes to things that weren't okay. That was really the moment I would say where this self worth net worth connection piece came in for me, because they didn't have the self worth to stand in my truth in my divorce mediation, and was in a lot of blame until I was able to move into responsibility, then this whole piece around, what do I even want? And that's what I often hear from my clients. I don't even know what I want. How do I even begin because if we're defining boundaries as the limits, we sat around what we will or will not do accept or tolerate, ultimately, what's okay or not, okay, we have to begin with contacting preference and desire. And I can vividly remember sitting on the couch after we were separated, I was on my own. And again, you know, I've painted the picture of him, but he literally determined what I ate, what I wore, how I moved, my body checked my body fat weekly, I didn't even know what I wanted to eat. I didn't even know I sat in the same clothes for five days, because I just couldn't even deal with getting dressed. And I could picture what she was wearing, because I remember the chartreuse fleece I sat in for five days on this couch. And it's like shocking to me who I am now versus who she was. Yes.

Kristen

I want to circle back to one thing you said is about attachment. My theory just a theory is hone in on this. But I think it's important, how your journey I'm wondering, and sure attachment, I think affairs are rooted in attachment issues. And we're looking for those needs to get met that were not met. And it all makes sense, right? And so you kind of abandon split off from parts of yourself to be the caretaker to be the responsible and I see this a lot in our family system. Right. And so how were you able to recognise that and then start connecting to your unmet needs. And I'm wondering sounds like you became the kind of idealised parent for yourself to heal that.

Nancy

I did. But there was a big gap. I mean, for The affair in 2002, it being discovered in 2008, I didn't tell a soul I didn't tell them the secret. It was a secret, right? It was a secret, I tell a soul, I didn't tell the therapist, it was coming out, I broke out into hives often, there were many physical manifestations of the secret keeping. Because when we don't tell the truth that will come out sideways. And when we don't tell the truth, we create chaos. So all of this was happening. And ultimately, I had the affair and wrote about it. It was like setting a bomb to detonate eight years later, because I didn't know a way out, I wasn't a person who could at that time, go to my husband and say, This doesn't work for me, I don't want to be here anymore. I don't want to be married, I don't want to be in this. I didn't know how to get out. And so I did the only thing I knew how to do at the time that I thought would help me ultimately be able to leave. But what I can tell you is had he not read the journals, it's highly likely that I would never have left had he not discovered the truth, it is highly likely I would not be sitting here talking to you today, I would not have written five books, I would not have become a coach, everything would have stayed the same, I would have done everything in my power to protect the status quo. So I will tell you that I think my lucky stars that he did,

Kristen

it did for you, like you said, but the truth was on the paper. So the truce was on the paper. Yeah. And him discovering the truth was the doorway to close the chapter on that part of your life, and open up to the real you. And finally take a look at what lies underneath all the fear. Can I read this from your description of your new book? Because I think ties into this whole idea of boundaries. I love it. So it says Do you feel you're a pushover? So you're describing kind of your old self? In a way? Yeah, very much to let other people make all the plans, letting them pick the movie, the restaurant or the vacation destination? Does self care feel selfish to you? And do you find yourself feeling resentful towards others? Because they don't seem to take your needs into consideration? Can you relate? If you answer yes, this book is for you. I love that because so many people I work with would say yes to majority of those.

Nancy

This is the thing I will say I'm on my soapbox, I'm on the bandwagon and a mission to reclaim selfish, we have disowned this quality. And we have taken it to the extreme where we have actually removed ourselves from our lives, we are disappearing, we have taken ourselves out of the conversation in the equation. So really, the invitation here is are you willing to show up and consider yourself as much as and then ultimately, more than you're considering everyone else in your life? Do you owe that to yourself.

Kristen

And people said I'm scared writers

Nancy

big time. But if you've been living this whole other way, this can feel like a really tall order. And so it's about really slowing it down. And it's about checking in again with preference and desire. And it's about doing it first in areas where the stakes are low. In the book, I go through a whole process of set your beginner boundaries, and then there's a boundary pyramid working our way up to the bottom line boundaries, essentially. But to even look at how often are we saying yes to what we really want to say no to in our lives? And just starting there. And recognising what that knee jerk Yes. Is the knee jerk? Yes. Is the need to be needed, or obligation responsibility. I don't want someone to be mad at me. I don't want someone to be disappointed. I want to be the hero. Any of that is really ultimately a no, yes is about desire. I give this assignment to my clients all the time. If a direct request comes to you, and you can say no right away, say no. If you are unable to say no simply let the other person know you'll get back to them tomorrow, build in the space to actually consider because otherwise we go to the knee jerk. Yes. And then one second later, we're like, oh my god, how am I gonna get out of this? Or we see it sitting in our calendar for a week and we're every day dreading this thing that's sitting there. So let's actually operate from a place of honesty and alignment upfront. And here's the other thing about saying no, and especially for women, and especially for the people pleasers. We're so terrified. It's black or white. If I say no, they're gonna leave. If I say no, they're gonna hate me. No equals abandonment. And it really doesn't. And when we are honest about our yeses and noes, first of all, it's like we're giving P But to us, it's like we're giving people puzzle pieces, our puzzle pieces so that they can start seeing the truth of ourselves. And it's like we're giving people our operating manual. And the bottom line is that if we're not coming to each other with our truth, this is not a sustainable relationship. If we're living with that facade, wearing the mask, the armour, the cape, I mean, I've worn it all. And that's why I do think that there's this epidemic of loneliness in this country, or the world, because we're not even really showing up. So many of us believe that we have to hide some part of ourselves in order to be loved and accepted. And this can be some quality, this can be some attribute, or this can be some secret some skeletons in the closet. It's the thing if you knew this about me, you wouldn't love me, you would leave me. And yet in the next breath, we're all saying some version of can I just love the love for who I am. And in order to be loved for who we are, we're gonna have to show up that way. And that seems scary. But I'll tell you, Oh, my God, it is safe to just show up as me as opposed to wearing the mask and the cape and the armour. I have so much more energy, I'm so much more resourced. I don't live in my head with worry and anxiety. I'm not concocting stories. I'm not living in this way of what do I need to do to make everything be okay, I'm not spinning out as someone's talking to me thinking about what do I have to do? What do I have to say? And it's refreshing, it's freeing.

Kristen

So what do you say to people that say, but that's not safe for me to say how I really feel or set a boundary?

Nancy

Yeah, so I think it has to begin doesn't have to be with every single person in your life all the time, all at once you find one safe person to tell the truth to find one safe person with whom you can begin to set a boundary. Now when we're talking about boundaries, I really want to I want to bust the biggest boundary myth. So the biggest boundary myth is other people are crossing my boundaries. And I hear this from clients all the time, I tried to set a boundary, but he or she is crossing my boundary. And the truth of the matter is, it is not anyone else's job to uphold our boundaries. So any boundary I set is between me and me, even if it involves you. Even if it involves another person, it's up to me to hold the boundary in place. So boundaries are not wanting someone else to change. And you know, most of us have this idea that this is how you set a boundary. You never you always I need you to some kind of language like that. If you don't do this, do this or else, some kind of ultimatum, some kind of you need to change language, which is pointing the finger, which ultimately puts us in the victim stance, we're blaming, and we're the victim of someone else's behaviour. I'm talking about taking responsibility and moving into empowerment, boundaries are again, what's okay with me what's not okay with me, and how I'm going to take care of myself how I'm going to honour respect and uphold my boundary. So if I set a boundary, it's up to me to hold it. So when our boundaries get crossed, we're the ones crossing them. And we're teaching people how to treat us. So if we do verbalise a boundary, and then we go back on it, we don't hold it where the little girl cries, Wolf, we're not giving anyone else any reason to believe that we're standing in our truth. And is that

Kristen

one people oftentimes can say they're so controlling, or I don't want to be controlled. This seems to be a theme, and so trigger for people.

Nancy

Absolutely. So, and I have really changed my language around this and telling my own story, I allowed myself to be controlled, I enabled him to be controlling, because I acquiesced. I was too afraid to stand up. I didn't know how to speak my truth, or express my needs. They were always discounted. So I just froze, I just shut up. And I ended up just giving it. So that's phase

Kristen

out of that myth. Absolutely. That control piece. What are the other myths that you are saying are big ones when it comes to boundaries?

Nancy

That like if I set boundaries, I'm a bitch. Most people think boundaries. It's like, I mean, if I set a boundary, it means I mean, and the truth of the matter is that it's more kind to set a boundary because it's honest, open, direct communication, not telling the truth is what's unkind. And then we ended up feeling resentful. And I will tell you right now, resentment is the number one telltale sign that a boundary needs to be put into place, that as soon as we feel that resentment rising in us, and it's often misdirected, we think we're resentful about someone else, but really were resentful about the fact that we allowed this to go this far that we kept saying something was okay, that isn't okay. We kept lying, or we kept pretending. We kept saying that we like sushi when we're allergic to fish. I'm serious I but you know?

Kristen

Totally like, Well, why no say that? Well, if I wanted to feel they love me.

Nancy

That's right. So I'll just say yes to all the things you like, I mean, the chameleon, who do I need to be for you to love me. And this is something I really noticed among women, we forget, or we don't even know that we actually can do the picking and choosing, we get so enamoured with being chosen and picked, that we want to present ourselves in such a way that someone will choose us pick me. And we forget that we actually have the power to choose. And I think that that's an important piece in the boundary conversation too, because we're so used to being the chameleon, we're so used to wanting to appeal to someone else. And we take ourselves out of the equation, remembering that we actually get to decide what works for us,

Kristen

yes, we pick us. And then it's icing on the cake that we then get to pick, right, because we've already picked us, we've already decided I'm a priority, I'm important, my feelings matter. So the mark, like Oh, I'm always I have to do everything. Talk to me a little bit about boundaries and martyrdom.

Nancy

Yeah. And again, it's this whole thing of being the rescuer, the saver, the fixer on the one and the only one and that that's where we're deriving our value and our worth. I'm only valued or worthy for what I do achieve or produce. And so we're essentially hitching our worthiness to someone else's waggon we're letting someone else be the determiner of our work. And we're also doing all of that because we want to avoid discomfort, we want to avoid the discomfort of even feeling, the guilt we might feel if we actually start making ourselves a priority. But I will always say that in this particular context, I think guilt is an indicator that we're on the right track, that if you feel guilty for putting your needs first, if you feel guilty for not saying yes to everything, if you feel guilty for not taking on all the responsibility, it is a good indicator that you're taking care of yourself. Finally,

Kristen

I like how you put that because I think guilt can be a huge proponent to positive change. It really can where shame kind of takes us down to the dark abyss. And yeah, feels like I'm something's wrong with me, we're right says, Okay, those are about my choices. And I can do something about that. In the book you talk about you mentioned this just a minute ago, talk a little bit about what a boundary pyramid is that you describe in the book.

Nancy

So really talking about what are your bottom line boundaries. So these are like what you really, these are like the non negotiables, this is what you must have, then there's sort of nice to have boundaries, like these would be nice. And then there's sort of the cherry on top boundaries. This would just make everything wonderful, but it's not like life or death. Because we're looking at the boundaries, we also want to start looking at the gradation of not only what's okay and what's not okay, but like, what can I live with, and what won't I live without, and start looking at it that way. So that we start being able to put boundaries, we want to set into different categories. But to always begin starting with that these beginner boundaries that can even just be simple requests, that might elicit a lot of discomfort, a request, even being in a waiting room at the dentist's office and asking for the TV to be turned down. Or going to a restaurant getting your water in your menus, realising that there isn't anything that you want to eat and actually getting up and leaving. Instead of sitting there and suffering through something that you don't want. This actually happened

Kristen

with one of my we were at a girls group trip and it's funny cuz she didn't like what she got. She was like, I feel bad. I'm not gonna say anything. I feel bad. If you don't like it, say say, No, I feel terrible, right? Yeah, cares. But this is how we are.

Nancy

We can completely be kind enough. And again, that's why I was saying before, it's like asking for what we want doesn't make us mean doesn't make us a bit doesn't make us unkind. It's just about being able to kind of stand in what I need, and begin taking care of myself. And that

Kristen

can be scary when like you said from you're growing up to abandoning all your needs, and we don't want to be needy. We don't want to appear at and we don't want to write your thing,

Nancy

right. But as soon as we abandoned our own needs, and as soon as we abandoned neediness, all the needy people crying, and then they're just going to reflect back to us, really the neediness that we need to integrate and own?

Kristen

Absolutely. Tell me a little bit about the danger in people pleasing and why it becomes an addiction of sorts. I hate using that term addiction. But why it becomes habitual,

Nancy

I think it becomes habitual, again, back to this way of the way of how we determine our worth and our value, that we're constantly deriving our value by what we do for someone else, we're seeing heroic nature. And that is the piece that becomes habitual or becomes addictive, if you will. No, because we keep getting that rush, or we keep getting like, if I keep doing this, I get rewarded in some way.

Kristen

And then I feel good, because I was helpful. I was caring, right? And then people are alright, thank you so much. And there's seemingly so appreciated so much, because that felt good, because I didn't get that in my childhood. So now, it's like a little hit of dopamine, so to speak, not really feels like

Nancy

that's what it feels like. And I do often talk about when we're turning the ship around, and no longer in that pleasing mode. We're weaning ourselves off of that we're actually we go into a withdrawal.

Kristen

Yeah, we actually have to feel the feelings underneath which might be creates a sadness. And that's what we're trying to avoid through the people pleasing. So we actually now have to connect to the oceans underneath. Exactly right for yes, we have to go through it to get to the other side. But people get scared, because they weren't allowed to feel all that as kids. So as we wrap up one or two things that people can start, you gave us some great nuggets on practising with one person telling the truth. What are the other couple of things people can do to start beginning to open the door, to free themselves to be their authentic self, and start speaking their truth?

Nancy

To be able to really slow down, take the pause, consider the yeses and noes to ask yourself the question, what do I need? And what do I want? And actually begin there instead of automatically going to what the other person needs? Or wants? Or how do I need to show up for that other person, but to actually rein the attention back into myself? What do I want? What do I need, and again, that in really low stakes, arenas to begin offering your preference, offering your desire, naming a truth, we will feel so much less resentful, if we at least bring our opinions and bring our preferences out into the open than if we keep swallowing them and biting our tongue. So to just start beginning, they're really checking in around that. Yes and no remembering that you don't need to do a song and a dance and a story when you say no, it can be as simple as no thank you, or I'm not available for that, or thank you for including me, but I won't be there, whatever it is, but you don't even have to apologise saying no, with grace and gratitude, not apology and not excuses. Little things like that can feel so overwhelming in our heads. Once we start doing them. They actually become more easy.

Kristen

Yes, those are so wonderful. I am just so grateful for all this wisdom that you have shared today where I know the listeners are gonna want to find you get your book, where can they find you online and your programmes and your your offerings.

Nancy

Everything's on my website. So Nancy levin.com Everything about my coaching training my programmes, my books, my social media, everything's right there. My live events. Yeah. Nancy levin.com.

Kristen

And do you have any upcoming live events for anybody that might be interested?

Nancy

I do. At the end of March. I will be on the east coast at Kripalu doing a weekend on boundaries. Also in April, I'll be at 1440 on the West Coast doing a weekend on boundaries. I've got yeah, those are the two most closest in ones but they're all on my website.

Kristen

Wonderful. Thank you so very much for your time and sharing your journey with us. I'm truly grateful and I know the audiences too. Thank you so much, Nancy.

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button, too. Be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. For more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com. Thanks and have a great day.