Kristen
Welcome to this week's Close the Chapter Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I cannot tell you how excited it brings tears to my eyes. I am to have my guest today. She is so special to me. And we have been trying to do this interview, or are we on for weeks or five, I don't even know.

Laura
I was enjoying it. I'm just enjoying the process.

Kristen
It's been the most wonderful journey. We keep scheduling time to do this interview. And then we just have vulnerable, heartfelt, authentic conversations. And it's been life giving to me. And I cherish our time together. So today, we're like, are we going to record today, and we decided we're going to record today. Because our converse, we need to like record our conversations, because they have such meaning. And they've been so transformative in my life, because we can do vulnerability and transparency and share from the heart what's really going on. So you're a gift to me. And I know too many. So as the therapy chat, host of the podcast who's transforming lives, it's in the 1%. I need to tell the audience, you're in 1% of all podcasts. Oh my gosh, Laura, that's incredible.

Laura
That's just on Spotify.

Kristen
That's huge. You're in the 1%. I'm still like when I read that I was like, I was so excited for you. Because I loved your therapy chat, and what you're doing with trauma. So welcome to the podcast.

Laura
Thank you, it's so beautiful to finally be being recorded. With you.

Kristen
I know it's so good. So thank you so much. I know my audience resonates with vulnerability and authenticity, and having real conversations. So we were talking about all the topics that we could talk about, because there's so many, and

Laura
so many parallels and what we both care about and are dealing with.

Kristen
Yes, and we have many passion passions in terms of expanding this conversation. So there was many different avenues. But as we were talking, we were really talking about the process of our parents, and the journey of parenthood and the grief and attachment that can come with it and decision making. So I thought we could start with attachment. So if folks don't know what attachment is with a parent, can you explain what attachment exactly is?

Laura
I'm sure, I'll just make it kind of general. But basically, your attachment with your parents is how secure your relationship is with them. And it comes from it starts, you know, at birth. How well you feel attuned to by your parents. So basically, how reliably Could your parents meet your physical and emotional needs as a baby. And since most of our parents, if you're, I'm 51 now, so if you're probably between 35? Well, 35 and up, your parents probably didn't know anything about attachment or about children's emotional needs or developmental needs. So for most of us, our parents just really didn't know how to meet our emotional needs because theirs weren't consistently and reliably met. Maybe the people who their parents had enough money and were well enough resourced in terms of like, the parent was getting enough social support, they were getting enough help. They had enough money, there was an ability to provide for their own needs and your needs, then you may have grown up with insecure attachment with your caregiver. And for the rest of us. It may not have been as reliable. So it's what they used to call bonding. You know how well you are bonded with your caregiver or, and it really comes down to trust. It's like, Can I trust them to be there when I need them? And how well am I able to trust them to be there when I need them? Maybe I know they're there for me in some situations. But there are a lot of other situations that I know I just can't even let them know about because they won't know what to do that type of feeling as a child and then when you grow up. How well You How securely you're attached to your parent. Is it's still affecting you, throughout your whole life.

Kristen
How did you discover your attachment style? Like, how did you figure that out?

Laura
Well, I hadn't heard about it until I really didn't even hear about attachment styles until maybe 2014 or 15, maybe I heard about attachment in terms of like, the bonding idea, you know how well you're bonded with your child. So, as the, as a mother, myself, I heard about it, then, in the bonding perspective, but um, I remember when I had my son, my first child, I remember, I've said this one or two times on other podcasts. But I remember I was looking, I was laying in bed with my baby, I think I had just fed him. We were kind of dozing. And I suddenly thought about nephew that I loved but I also thought was very annoying, who was about to? So I was a mother of a newborn. And I'm thinking about my two year old nephew. And I thought, oh, that sweet little angel. And then I, I was like, Oh, why did I have that thought about him? That's not the way I normally think about him. And that was like a hormonal, you know, moment of oxytocin making me feel love and connection for a child in my life that I did love. But I didn't necessarily feel connected to that kind of that level of emotion and connection with them, until that moment.

Kristen

And then the duty to think about your own attachment style at that. Yeah. Well,

Laura

what came up right then was I thought, Oh, this sweet little angel. And then I pictured my mom. And I thought, how can anyone not love a baby? What's wrong with her? And it was like, where did that come from? Because I didn't have any real conscious awareness of thinking that my mom didn't love me, or that she didn't love any of us children. But that, that was, I can't explain that because I was not a therapist, then this is when I was 24 years old, new parent, but, you know, it was definitely an attachment experience in that moment, that related to feeding my baby, you know, and then picturing my nephew, and, and then I had a, like an emotional reaction about my mom all in that like 10 seconds.

Kristen
So powerful aren't those powerful moments in your life? Because you can recall that, you

Laura
know, that we're talking about more than 25 years ago, and it's like, clear as day is clear as day. It might be what you call an emotional flashback. There you go.

Kristen
What for those that don't know what that is, what's an emotional flashback flashback.

Laura
Well, so that would be a type of trauma reaction. And in this case, it would be related to attachment. But, you know, if I looked at it now, I would say Okay, so I had a baby. And then I had a flashback of a feeling of not being wanted by my mom, that I wouldn't have been able to connect them that way. But I can see that as I look back on it. And unlike a cognitive dissonance that I had, where you know, you your, your logical thought, and your emotions don't match up and I thought, Wait, where's this, you know, this doesn't fit, this doesn't match. So a lot of times you can tell flashbacks of any kind in a trauma reaction as something that just doesn't fit the situation. It's like, why is this all happening right now? So, but an emotional flashback wouldn't necessarily be like a vision of a memory. It's just a it's like a memory of an emotion.

Kristen
Think that's so weird. It's so important to because people don't know like you and I know the terms but to explain it. I think it's so helpful to people. I remember learning about attachment, and then I would go back into my dating life and I would see my anxious attachment. Play out with the people I dated and how insecure I felt. I didn't feel secure which then was a mirror to my attachment wounds. I didn't know that's what that was. I felt like what don't you want? Like don't be that you want me all those are eight that insecurity was

Laura
not good enough? Why

Kristen

don't you want to be with me always with your friends I mean all the things that now I look back and I go oh, that was a mirror that I knew at the time by like I knew, but I didn't know what it was I couldn't name it. And so,

Laura

right. So then what do you feel about it? Shame? Exactly right. You can't name it, you know, you know, this doesn't feel right. But you're like, Why am I being like this, this is I'm acting desperate. Or you don't want this person to know how much I like them. Because they don't seem to like me as much. Yeah, I can last and reenactmen t of the, that's reenact the trauma of attachment. And then I start again as parenthood, like when we adopt or give birth it doesn't or any form of kind of a parent role. For me that mirrored back all my attachment wounds, because I was paying attention. I was like, okay, and my Flickr, your kids, you were way ahead of me? Well, I don't know about that. But my fear of reenacting the attachment wasn't attachment loot, my fear of I'm going to damage them. They're going to feel the same way that I felt about my mom, I don't want them to feel that way. I don't want to be my mom. I know that was all my attachment wound, that anxiousness, mirroring itself back on my f ears. So it's interesting to see how the attachment wounds play out throughout the lifetime that trauma.

Laura
Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's such a gift to be able to, one, it's a gift to learn about being a therapist before you have kids, because then you can actually try to apply it to what you're doing, hopefully, if you have some awareness, but also, it's so confusing, because there's your whole attachment history, that is your childhood, and your adult relationships with everyone, your friends, your co workers, your partners, your children, and your parents and your siblings, that all of those are attachment relationships to some level, right? And then, you know, looking at your own behaviour, and how you connect, or don't. Because, like, just thinking about it, if I had an unconscious internal experience that I was that my mom didn't love me. And it was not in my conscious awareness, then how am I going to behave with other people about letting them like, know me? Or, like, how much am I going to let people in? If I unconsciously think that even my own mother doesn't love me, you know? And then and then I'm not aware of it. So then I'm you know, do you like me? Do you like me? Do you want me? Do you want me, you know, don't reject me, don't leave me, but also somehow playing out this unwanted pneus. It's like, I'm seeking out people who are going to re enact that with me. And they did. It so many of them did. And that also is like you see yourself that way, then you're like, Well, I don't I don't have any idea why I'm acting like this, but or even how I'm acting, but I'm getting this repeated message of rejection. Or like unavailability, like I'm knocking on the door, and you're just in there with the lights off. And you're not answering you know?

Kristen
Oh, yes. I picked many of those folks. Yeah, many of those folks.

Laura
Yeah, somehow that felt just right.

Kristen
And awful and awful, an awful at the same time. It's it's a powerful reckon it's a powerful reckoning in my mind, in my embodiment in my body, to start noticing that because as we were processing our parents getting older, and declining in health issues, the attachment wound still is at play. Yeah. Unconsciously sometimes, even in Subtle, subtle, subtle ways.

Laura
It's very subtle. It's pretty much invisible, unless you're looking for it. You know, is it Is there it's totally happening, but we're just like, in a trance, you know, we're just like going through and thinking. I don't know, I mean, with. I've had two experiences with two parents of them ageing, and me trying to sort of wrangle with that. And I'm still going through it with both, which means they're both still alive. And I'm grateful for that. But it's like it's so confusing, because you think, I think I think this is a common cultural expectation. But it could be maybe it's just me, but I really think that, you know, I see this out there among people that you, you think, when my parents get older, I'll have to make some decisions about, are they going to live with me? Are they going to live in a nursing home or an assisted living facility or some kind of independent living senior place? Or when my parents get old, they'll have to make some decisions? And I'll have to be clear on my boundaries about what I can do what I can't do, you know, I had had those thoughts. But for one thing, it seemed really, really, really far off, even though my parents are in their 80s. Like, it's not that far off, right? At this point. And there's a, like, an illusion that you're going to have more control over what happens, then you are actually going to have? Yeah. And that brings up all the attachment wounds.

Kristen
Yeah. And I find from my own journey with my mother, who recently passed, that the guilt that I didn't do enough, I didn't intervene enough, I didn't. And when the truth of the matter is, I did what I could, there was nothing else I could do. I was powerless over choices and decisions. And in some cases, for some folks they do, they're are able to take over, they are able to make some decisions. And those are hard. And those are painful. In our cases, well, in this case, right now is, where it stands, is I wasn't able to, there was nothing I could do. Because those choices were being made by her. And that was something I had to surrender. And that also have my role of trying to get her to see the light, talk her into getting help facing the pain dealing with it. Advocating for like all of the things I kept constantly trying to get her to do. My work was over the last couple years was to release that. Surrender that. So there is a lot here in terms of our parents and decision making in this in the grief in the surrendering process when it comes to the attachment with a parent. Because me trying to still gain that was an attachment ploy on my end trying to connect to my mom. Yes. Do you see I was trying to gain that connection that I craved. As a child that I once had, by the way, like my mom, at one point was a very attentive, nurturing mother. And then she wasn't able to offer that anymore. So I was trying to gain that back. By trying to get her help and get her they'll see the light and talk her into things. And it was. So that was my attachment wound playing out.

Laura
That makes so much sense.

Kristen
And as you're like thinking about your parents in this attack, like trying to feel like you're helping, and yet they are making their own decisions. How does that land in terms of the trauma response? For folks? Potentially,

Laura
yeah, it will. It's just so confusing. Because everything you just said I can relate to so much, and I'm really sorry about you losing your mom. Thank you. And it's like it's like, one thing that can happen is you're trying to control the situation. You're you're feeling a loss of control, something's happening, that you don't like it, and you want it to be different. And you somehow feel that you have better information about what should happen. And maybe you do like, you know, both my parents situations I've had because of my work as a therapist and the Uh, you know, exposure that I've had to a lot of people's stories and a lot of people's health issues. I do have some, you know, knowledge that could be valuable. But at the same time, I'm not in that role here. So it's, there's like, it's hard to navigate those boundaries of where is it my, where am I responsible to step in? Where am I overstepping? Where am I just trying to get them to listen to me for once, you know, and like, so I feel like, in my situation, what I'm doing a lot is saying, I just want people to consider my perspective, it's fine if they don't follow it, but I'm just asking to be heard. You know, I don't have to control this process. But I would like my part, I would like to be considered as part of it, but it's their life, and it's their decisions. But, but also, there's part of it, where it's like you're trying to negotiate with, don't, don't go, you know, which is also for me, and an attachment wound is I mean, there's, there's the, there's so many attachment wounds that we can have, there's, you know, not being wanted would be one being left, rejected, abandoned, all of that is my stuff. So, it's like, it's, it's not necessarily true that my mom didn't want me or she didn't love me or something. But the result of her leaving, without me, is, that's my story, right? That's a story that my younger self still holds on to. So it's like, I guess there's like, it's weird, because I'm thinking about both my mom and my dad and their health issues, and, and the different ways that each situation has been playing out, but it's like, a do over. I'm gonna, this time, I'm gonna you're not gonna leave me like that. Yes, you know, this time, and it'll be different, somehow. But the truth is that we will all die. So they will be leaving. And, you know, I think part of me is just like, like you said, wanting that connection that wasn't there before, or that was there at some point and trying to get it back. Part of me is saying, Well, this is the time you have, so try to get as much connection as you can from it. But not trying to control the process. Like I think that's my highest self that's like, where can you make connection and keep connection? To the extent possible? Thinking you're going to control it is not the way because that isn't connecting. Right. But yeah, that do over feeling is really big. Yeah,

Kristen
that's a good we should name it wanting to

Laura
over the do over the new name for reenactment. Yes, or enactment?

Kristen
Because it people can relate to that. How many of us want do overs? I mean, that is so real and authentic. I mean, that's what we, we crave this deep, authentic, vulnerable connection where we're heard because you said I want to be heard. Yeah. I'm like, Yes. And that that's what I'm passionate about, like we all deserve to be heard. And acknowledged, and given permission to feel what you feel. But that's not the messaging we got, especially when we have trauma from generations. Oh, yeah. It's just not the message. We get an anxious attachment, which we feel like that anxiety just kind of lives in our nervous system or avoidant you know, if you get an avoidant parent, you then aren't getting your needs met. So then you are craving. And I think as humans in general, we want to be heard. We want to feel important. We want to feel loved. We want to feel wanted,

Laura
right? And we don't want to be invisible. Now we want to matter to the people in our lives, the ones that we depend on

Kristen
that word invisible. How much do you think that's connected to attachment?

Laura
Huge for me, I think so.

Kristen
I don't think anyone's made that connection at will that I've heard at least this feeling of feeling invisible, and that power and feeling invisible? And then feeling that wherever you go,

Laura
right? Oh, yeah, I'm gonna say something about that. Yeah, say it. Well, it's like, if your family wasn't safe, you might have needed to be invisible to escape their violent notice or their, you know, threat in some way. If you if there was always something going on that nobody was really telling you what it was, and you could sense it being invisible as a way to oh, I mean, think of every like fairy tale and Harry Potter, like there's a cloak of invisibility, you know, it's like, every kid wants that, right. So you can be there and you can know what's going on, but not be in danger at all. You know, you're ejected. Yeah. So if you think about dissociation, which I'm always talking and thinking about, right? Like, you can make yourself invisible, like that's metaphorically a way to be invisible. And if you've ever been around people who are dissociating a lot, oftentimes, the people with them don't notice them. Because it's like, there's a lack of presence that you can sort of feel. And so you can't see the other person sort of not feeling your energy, because in a way, it's like shut down, you're there, but you're not there. And as a child, if your parent for one is avoidant, if they're dissociating a lot, and, you know, thinking back on my family's history, there's a lot of reasons why people would have needed to dissociate a lot, you know, things that happen historically, and within the family, that, you know, we're just too much. And so the way to get through it is you just either pretend it's not happening, or just push through and some other way. So if your parent is avoidant, and they're not really paying attention to you, then you feel invisible. So that invisible thing is really big.

Kristen
It really is. And can you share more about I've talked about dissociation, but I love you are so beautiful in how you share about it? And how different it can look for different people. Can you share more about what it is? How it for how it can manifest itself and look in various forms?

Laura
Well, I think that basically, it's, it's just so common, and it's something that we all do. And I mean, I don't know about this from a research perspective, but it seems pretty obvious that animals do it to you know, mammals. When your nervous system is overwhelmed by anything, that's too much. And you just need some distance from it. That's what dissociating is. So it can be anything from you know, like a thought of, I just can't deal with this right now, too. I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but you're talking and the other person says something, and you just didn't hear it. But there's nothing wrong with your hearing. You're right there. You know, let's say you're talking and the other person just says something that's like, it strikes something. And you just don't hear it. You go what was that? Or are you talking to someone and you say something that has some emotional charge, but it's not, you know, you're not fighting with them or anything like that. But you just say something that's touches something in them and they go What were you what were we just talking about? You know, that's an example of going away in your mind, daydreaming zoning out narcolepsy, where you fall asleep, you know, and then you're just not there. Or it's basically I'm trying to explain that it's like a spectrum. We all do it, children are able to do it really powerfully and effectively as a way to protect them from losing connection with their attachment figure. When you know anything is happening, that's overwhelming. The child has to stay connected to the attachment figure. So that means if they have to dissociate to be able to keep that connection, then that's what they have to do. So like if the parent is screaming at the child and the child's nervous system is feeling like they're in immense danger, but this is their parent and they're completely dependent on them and they need that connection. Then they may go away In their mind, but they're still there with the parent. And, you know, maybe their voice is saying, Okay, mommy, I won't do that, again, while their mind is like, they're running through a beautiful meadow, playing in the flowers, and they're not really here because they don't, they're a little nervous system can't tolerate losing that connection and feeling that fear of their parent at that moment. So that part goes in the unconscious space. And it's, you know, it's everything from that to fully, you know, developing separate identities to be able to function within unsafe or on unreliably secure emotional environments.

Kristen
What I noticed is you have a keen curiosity and and also noticing how people dissociate in different forms. So you'll name it, yes, it's how they dissociate, they go into looking at the chart instead of being present. Yeah, right, you're laying out some forms of dissociation, or tasking, you know, we've got to get this done, or we've got to do this, and almost a hyper fixation, rather than being present in your body emotionally connected to the person in front of you or the situation because of your discomfort, or even an unconscious response. Like just a way of functioning, you're very good at noticing different forms of dissociation.

Laura
Thank you. I've just had a lot of training and exposure to people, you know, who are dissociating because it's my, since I specialise in trauma, it's, that's, that's where the work is in healing trauma is in what was what were you unable to tolerate while it was happening, and getting you back into connection with those experiences, in a way that you can tolerate is, is really what trauma therapy is, in my really is

Kristen
my work yeah, and having a window of tolerance to be able to sit with that discomfort and those body sensations, emotions, all of the components, the sensory experience of what trauma can do. One of the things I notice, in my own self or with clients, and being dissociative is the breath. When you hold your breath, I noticed and it doesn't have to be necessarily holding breath. It could be rapid breath, but the breath changes. Mm hmm. And even swallowing, noticing jaw, noticing your eyes be really attuned to your own body and the power in that to stay present through the breath. Hmm.

Laura
Yeah, a lot of times when, as a therapist, I'll say this. But if anyone who's listening who's either a therapist or someone who's gone to therapy, or just noticed this in themselves, it's one thing that often happens with breath and dissociation is, you know, you're having a conversation in therapy. And it's like, a typical therapy conversation. And the therapist might say something, again, that they may not know that it's going to be poignant for the person or they may not know it's going to touch a nerve, but the person will go. And, and then you say, Oh, I just noticed that you had a sharp intake of breath. And then the person will say, Oh, I don't know, what do you mean? You know? So that's like, yeah, it's like, they just relived something in a in a microsecond. But they don't know what it was. And you don't know what it was if you're the therapist, but that sharp intake of breath tells us don't just over don't just keep talking. That's the bottom line. As the therapist don't just keep talking. Pause check in. What's happening right now. What are you noticing? I heard I heard something. Did you hear it? You know, and usually a person will be like, No, they didn't. So that's how you can tell. Like, that's one way. So the reason I say that is because like, obviously, your body's reacting as you're having these memories and body sensations, all these all this stuff is happening in your body that your cognitive mind. Can't even keep up with it moves way slower. Your body is processing all this stuff and your cognitive minds like does this fit the story? Not you know? It's always trying to figure out what's going on. So yeah, the whole The body is like, an ocean than underwater. Like what's happening under there. There's this whole life, you know, like, like a coral reef like and Finding Nemo or something, there's nothing visible, like little world in there. That's bad. He doesn't even know half of it's happening.

Kristen
I was wondering, how do you figure out when you're in this, like you're having dissociative experiences? How do you notice it? For those that are like, I don't even know where to begin to even notice?

Laura
Yeah, well, I would say, actually, I'll just tell you, one, you can slip into his trauma response, or an attachment, reenactment or trauma reenactment? very subtly, and not know. And so it's not something to be hard on yourself about, it's really just something to be curious about. And, you know, explore. But, for example, like with what you were saying about the relationships and looking back and going, Wow, that was my anxious attachment, well, you didn't know it, then you were just doing your your system was doing what it knew how to do, because that was how it was literally formed, you know, around these experiences. And that's what happens for all of us is that our whole way that our system, our nervous system works is formed around these experiences of being safe or not safe and feeling seen and heard and understood attune to attended to, that you matter, all of that, your whole way of seeing the world develops around that. So what I do is, I mean, I had to learn to get in touch with my body. And that was the biggest thing. That's probably something that I've been working with for about 15 Well, for 20 years, but for, for the past 15 years, it was just beginning to go, what's happening here. And then as I really started to tune into my body, I realised that it's always telling me at all times what's going on inside me, right? Like, you know, if I'm nervous, if I'm confident, if I'm happy, sad, angry, my body is, is telling me that. So I just tried to check in with my body, like all day, long every day. And that just looks like literally slowing down, kind of putting my hand on my chest. And I'm doing it right now I just close my eyes. And I'm just like,

Kristen
everybody do a few if you want to.

Laura
Just like kind of saying inside my mind and body like what's present, what am I noticing right now. And just by checking in with it slows you down a little bit, which is good. You start to feel like the energy moving through your body. And you might notice like a racing heart or sensations in your belly. So it's not like you get I do get words from my body. Like, you know, there will be words like I have to go to the bathroom, or I'm hungry, or I'm tired. Or sad, you know, it'll just be like that. But you know, oftentimes, my, my cognitive mind wants to understand what does this mean? What's happening and it's not necessarily as important to know that it's more like just as you learn to tune into your body. You just begin to know what you want and what you feel and you begin to trust yourself more and trust your own inner guidance more. And so that is a pretty stark contrast to what most people who have childhood trauma and attachment wounds. Their inner dialogue is kind of like, what should I do? What am I what am I doing? Who's going to tell me like, what's next and you know, it's more externally focused because that's how an insecure anxious child would be thinking. Right? Because they don't make their world they just someone else helps them make sense out of it. So All, tuning in that way to your body is like, you tell you what is going on, and make your decisions from that point

Kristen
that describes secure attachment. Which is what I do with couples, a lot of times I bring them towards each person in the Couplehood, feeling secure to then be able to have a healthy, not even healthy, but more connective, vulnerable, authentic relationship. Do you find that you've built up your what we call in the therapeutic world window of tolerance to tolerate? Body sensations, emotions? Sensory? What pieces that come through? Have you? Is that part of the process for you? Yeah, all right, what comes up?

Laura
Yeah, I would say like, again, the way I see the process of therapy and trauma therapy, therapy and healing is you start out your window of tolerance is wherever it is. And then you, you know, you have all these things that you can't go there and you can't go there. And you don't want to think about this. And you don't want to think about that. And you don't want to realise this, or you can't realise it or it's just not getting through. Because you're you know, still working through these patterns that relate to those early experiences, and you're not consciously aware of really what you're doing. So the more you begin to be able to tolerate looking at those patterns, because you know, you start to look at them, and then you feel overwhelmed with shame, and you go out of your window of tolerance down into hyper arousal or dorsal vagal shutdown, right. But the more you begin to look at them, and you know, as you you know, we talk about shame a lot, you and I, and as you, you know, look at those situations that go well, you know, is that, for me to feel ashamed about is that really my shameful thing is, you know, if I was a child, and I didn't know any better, or if I was just doing what made sense, when, you know, that's exactly how my family did things. Or that was what I learned through my attachment with my parent, or my unavailable caregiver. You know, that's where the cognitive mind can help you make sense out of it. Oh, hmm. I see, as a child, I blamed myself, but now when I look at it as my adult self, it's like, that wasn't my fault. You know. So I think that's how it begins to expand as as you have a safe, trusted person that you can, who can hold space while you explore this. Then you're able to say, well, person doesn't think it was my fault. Maybe there's also possibility even though I always thought it was my own fault, and maybe my parent gave me the message that it was my own fault. Or it was really my parents thing, and I didn't want to blame them. And so that's why it wasn't safe for me to consider that when you when you develop the capacity to hold you know, maybe I did this thing that was unhealthy for me, but that but I'm not bad, you know, like the dualities, then it gives you the, the capacity to witness your own experiences through that more compassionate lens. And then yeah, that does widen your window of tolerance. So long answer.

Kristen
Beautiful answer. Thank you. i This time went so fast. I was like, I couldn't keep going. I mean, I literally could do this for hours

Laura
about if we just do it like every Monday like, exactly.

Kristen
That'd be awesome. Well, I wish I love it so much. And I adore you. And thank you for sharing your wisdom. Where can people find more about you and your programmes and what you're offering to the audience?

Laura
Ah, well, thank you. Um, therapy chat is where most people find me and in therapy chat is on my website, trauma therapists network.com. So pretty much everything I do is there. There's a membership community for trauma therapists for their own support and directory for people who are looking for a trauma therapist to find one. And my other podcast, trauma chat, which explains similar to what I was talking about here. Some of those same concepts are explained on trauma chat and hopefully understandable ways. So that's all on trauma therapists network.com

Kristen
trauma therapist network.com I I am always talking about getting a trauma therapist. Her network is the place to go. So if you're on the like, you've really wanted to do work and you're just don't know where to find somebody. That's a great first step, her podcast, and then therapy, chat, trauma chat, and then the network. So this is the opportunity to get plugged in. And then her membership community for therapists I can't recommend and all the work you're doing enough to everybody listening. I am so grateful that we are souling together on this journey. And I yeah, I do believe that. And thank you for your heart, your time and your energy and sharing it with us today. I'm just super grateful.

Laura
Oh, I'm so grateful to it's always it's good for my soul to talk to you every time so thank you for having me on your your podcast is which is such a, a gift that I tell people about all the time.

Kristen
Thank you. So so much. Okay, until the next time we do another show another podcast which we will sell until next time. Okay, thanks.