Kristen
Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode so be sure to subscribe Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast I am so grateful you're here joining us for today's episode. If you haven't jumped on in gotten your journal, your free journal feel free to do that at Kristen D boice.com. forward slash free resources. So if you hear anything today that resonates with you that you might want to jot down or maybe it brings up some emotions for you. Feel free to use the journal or take out pad and a paper and a pen and take notes write out anything that you might be feeling today. I'm so excited about this topic of uncertainty and anxiety and how they're tied together and ways to nurture it, tend to it, deal with it work through it because we're all struggling on some level with the uncertainty because we don't know what one minute is going to hold from now. So I want to introduce you to today's guest Carrie bock. She's LPC M H SP by the well counselling is a licenced professional counsellor who specialises in helping clients with trauma, anxiety, OCD to get a deeper level of healing through EMDR. Love EMDR my whole team are trained via online counselling across Tennessee and in person intensive therapy sessions. Carrie is the host of the hope for anxiety and OCD podcast, which I just interviewed on Kerry's podcast. And that'll come out in a couple months. So as excited about that. That's how Carrie and I met. And on her podcast, it's a welcome place for struggling Christians to reduce shame, increase hope and develop healthier connections with God and others. So welcome to the podcast. Carrie.

Carrie
Thank you for having me, Kristen.

Kristen
It's so good to see you. Again. It's been about a month, I think since a month and a half or so since we met for your podcast. So it's exciting to see you together again on the closer chapter podcast.

Carrie
Yeah, it's good to be here and talking about one of my favourite topics anxiety.

Kristen
Yeah. So tell me how you got started in the field? How did you get started working with anxiety and OCD and trauma.

Carrie
That's a long story that probably have to condense. But I'll say that I've just was always really interested ever since I took a psychology class in high school that really just kind of sparked this fire in me and I thought, well, I want to help people. I like working with people. Let me go pursue this and kind of see where it goes. And then when I was in my undergraduate programme for psychology, there were somewhat of two paths that I saw my professors go down, they either went down a research path, which I found kind of boring to me personally, or they went down a counselling path. And I thought, well, maybe I could go down this counselling path. And I think it was just a process of where God directed my steps and how I ended up so I ended up doing counselling. And once I started that, I was like, Oh, I was like, yeah, like this is what I'm supposed to be doing with my life. It was just this light bulb that clicked and all made sense. And then how I got into the trauma piece really came from starting out working with children, which I mainly work with adults now and occasionally a couple of teenage older teenagers. But I got involved in working with children that had severe behaviour problems. And this was many years ago, probably a good 10 years ago now and thinking about that the recent book that came out not like what's wrong with you what happened to you everybody was asking what's wrong with these children? Why are they throwing desks in the classroom? Why are they walking out and cursing teachers? Why are they throwing these huge giant tantrums at home, and really, when we were able to peel back the layers and learn more about things like adverse childhood experiences, and I was able to realise, oh, it actually makes sense why they're acting this way because of the things that they have experienced at such a formative time in their life. And now my work is mostly with adults but it's going back to those difficult experiences that they grew up with and some of those traumatic routes from childhood so it's kind of interesting how that comes full circle. I feel like I'm working with inner children now instead of actual children. So that's how I got into the trauma piece the the anxiety and OCD piece. I think the OCD grew out of just working with people with anxiety and then many people who have OCD don't realise that they have OCD and it actually takes them about seven years to get diagnosed. So Since I was working so heavily with anxiety, it was just kind of a natural offshoot of that got some more training adapted some of the things that I was doing. And I've really enjoyed that work as well, because there aren't as many people looking at OCD from not a behavioural stick approach or a cognitive approach, but from actually more of a somatic approach through EMDR.

Kristen
Yeah. Would you describe somatic approach for those that might not know, therapy words

Carrie
coming out? But yeah, somatic is more just being in touch with what's going on your body? There's so much discomfort that comes up with OCD. And yes, it is discomforting thoughts that enter people's minds, but it's also a discomfort in their body that they feel like they can't tolerate and sit with that level of doubt or uncertainty or do you know just feeling like they need some sense of security of knowing certain things. And that can just cause a lot of panicky type anxiety symptoms distress in their body like heart beating faster or body tension? So really therapy like EMDR, their other therapies to Somatic Experiencing brain spotting those types of things that really look at okay, not just what are you thinking about? But how are you feeling in your body? How are your body sensations, giving you clues as to what's going on with you, which happens a lot in anxiety, actually, people present with not just saying, Hey, I'm worried about these 10 things, but saying, hey, my body feels like it's on overdrive.

Kristen
Yes, I have clients say I almost I felt like I was having a heart attack. Like I'm in the ER, I really feel like I'm having a heart attack like my heart's palpitating my breath, it can feel like I can't breathe. Yeah. And they were having panic and anxiety was really what was happening in the nervous system.

Carrie
So one thing I usually tell people is if you have something like anxiety, or trauma, you're going to have to do something more than just talking. Because we're only accessing certain parts of our brain, even when we're using language. Trauma is stored in the brain, as well as the body. So we really have to look at these types of approaches, if we're going to get a full deeper level of healing from trauma, you can talk about it. I'm not saying it's not therapeutic. Some people have gotten some great work done from some cognitive therapies. However, I think they're really missing a layer based on what we know about trauma.

Kristen
It's really transformative when people start to connect their nervous system gives them information to help them find the healing. Yeah, I think that's really powerful.

Carrie
There's so many cues that we can get from our body. Just even noticing tension, meaning into that, what is that about? What am I feeling tense about? Am I feeling like I'm having to hold everything together? Or like sometimes that tension in your shoulders? Does that mean that you feel like you have the weight of the world on you right now? There's so many places you could go with that?

Kristen
For you? How does it show up? How does anxiety, the uncertainty show up in your life? And then how do you tend to it because people on the other end think Oh, therapists never have any issues? Or they're, it's not that we don't have? We do we're very connected to it. I like to say we're human just like you. Yeah. So what are some of the things like in your own life? When anxiety comes up? How do you tend to it? What do you do with it?

Carrie
So first have to notice the unhealthy pole first, because my unhealthy pull first, when I feel anxious, is I have to fix it. And that usually means that I have to go into some kind of doing mode, some type of action, versus really just learning to sit and be. So when I noticed myself, like going into that doing mode of like, okay, how do I solve this problem? What do I do about it? How do I What's the next thing? I have to kind of peel back and say, Okay, you're doing the thing, again, you're doing that thing you do when you get anxious? And so what is it that I'm anxious about? And sometimes it's, for me, it's about trying to control something. So like, that's where the doing comes in, right? So there must be something that I can do about said situation, when really, there's not always something that I can do about it. And I've had to learn to identify that which is in my control, and that which is out of my control, and the things that are outside of my control. I have to learn to find some way to release them and let them go. I can't continue to hold on to them because it just perpetuates the anxiety cycle for me. Right now. My husband and I, we've been married a couple of years. We have a seven month old daughter and we're just navigating some very new health challenges with my husband. He has recently been diagnosed with a rare brain disease, the shortened form of it, it's SCA For short, and it's that stands for spinal cerebellar ataxia. It affects him in a lot of different ways that affects his gait, his movement, the way he walks, it's caused him to need to walk with a walker right now. And he may at some point or another end up in a wheelchair, that's a very big possibility for him. Although there is a massive level of uncertainty of Glenn, that is, that could be two years down the road that could be 10 years down the road. We don't know that right now he's in some regular therapy to help him as with his balance challenges and with walking, but there's a lot that even the doctors don't know, because this is a rare condition. And there are not many people that have it. In addition, there's 40 different types of what he has. So and they're kind of still discovering more types. So when you look at it that way, and we don't exactly even know which type he has, because we haven't gone through all the genetic testing. But when we have to kind of cling to things that we do know, and things that gratitude, I think, is a huge process in terms of how we handle the anxiety and the uncertainty, we get up every day. And it's like, okay, well, today, we're really thankful that he can walk. He's had some vision issues, that was kind of how this all got started. And we thought, is he going blind? We don't know. So we're thankful that he can see got her and watch her grow up. He is not working, and he's spending time with her. That's a blessing to us. That's a beautiful thing that he gets, even though this disease is not good. Like there are good things that come out of it, he does get more time with his daughter to spend with her. So trying to find the little pieces of certainty of what is it that we can do? And what can we be thankful for? Even in the midst of the negativity? I'm trying to stay away from the what if this happens, or what are we going to do if that happens, and really, the only way I can say to deal with that is a sense of mindfulness, just a sense of learning to be in the present learning to be dealing with only what are we dealing with right now. Because I can't solve tomorrow's problem today, I can only solve today's problem today. Like that's the only thing I need to really be most focused on. So I know I threw a lot at you in one sitting there. But that's the big synopsis. And I can go into detail on any of that, that you want me to.

Kristen
I was just thinking for you. Like you have a seven month old daughter while you're trying to navigate this uncertainty unknown with your husband? And what that must emotionally feel like how much time do you have to process the reality of just the diagnosis, the information plus having a little sweet Chera. But you know, at the same Yeah,

Carrie
I do have my own therapist, that certainly helps like carving dedicated time to process the unknown and the uncertainty of things and talk through the challenges in a way where I feel like I can be completely unfiltered and just say things to my therapist, even that I wouldn't necessarily say to my husband or express certain things because I don't want to hurt his feelings or cause him to be upset in some kind of way. And even just kind of for us kind of framing some language around like I'm really there are times where I'm really angry about this disease. I doesn't mean I'm angry at my husband. It's not his fault that he acquired this genetically somehow. And it had nothing to do with lifestyle or anything of that nature. So there are times where it's like, yeah, I'm really frustrated with your disease right now. But I love you. And I'm glad that you're here. And that saves certainly our relationship aspect in the process. So yeah, and I journal some too. I wrote a letter the other night, that was so helpful. And so healing and therapeutic for me, I wrote a letter to my husband's ataxia, and it was basically like, how what I felt like had been stolen from me. And so as we're going through this process, it's like, the grief and loss feelings come up. It's not just the anxiety. There's a whole host of other feelings, you know, that as you know, that travel with fear, there's sadness component, there's anger sometimes. So, sometimes getting those other feelings out is really, really helpful for me, because if we're comfortable with anxiety, sometimes even especially as females, like men tend to be more comfortable with like anger. Women tend to be more comfortable with anxiety. A lot of times it's because we are missing out on expressing some other emotions that are tied together with those.

Kristen
I think you've said something so many things right there that I just are so helpful, because I don't think people realise that underneath anxiety are tied to anxiety is grief and loss, which is sadness, anger, disgust, right. confusion, fear, all of those things. And I love how you said in order to kind of process some of owes. I'm a big letter writer, I love letter writing, and you wrote it to the disease, is that what you wrote it to? Yeah, instead of your husband, you're like, I'm not mad at him, I'm mad at the disease. And I love letter writing, like, I could do a letter, and I don't have to give it to anybody, like you don't have to, you're not giving it to it's for you. Like, I'm not gonna give the letter Mike, you don't have to get the letter, this letter is for you to get underneath what's activating the anxious feelings you have.

Carrie
Yeah, and I had just been kind of like down and a little irritable that day. And that was how I got started writing. And I think that caused me to once I started writing, it caused me to get to the sadness layer, which is what I really needed to get to. And like, I needed to get that out, have a good cry and let it go. And then I felt so much better. After I did that, I was like, Oh, like that was underneath there. And I was just kind of covered up by this layer of like, slightly depressed and irritable and grumpy for the day. But I didn't really I wish I had kind of done that earlier in the day. I waited till like the evening, and I was like, let's try to see if we can unpack this here. What's really going on with me?

Kristen
Yeah, what prompted you to write the letter? Like, what gave you the sense of I'm gonna write a letter to the disease? Like, what was it in you that decided that was what was going to be helpful to you? Because a lot of people don't know, they're like, I don't know how to feel better. I don't know. What will make me less anxious.

Carrie
Well, writing is just so always been helpful and therapeutic for me to write things down. I know, it's some people tell me Yeah, journaling doesn't do anything for me, or they're not a fan of it, or they don't want to expose themselves in that way. Or they're afraid of somebody else reading it. But I just keep Google documents on my computer. And I either dated or I'll title it in some way and just kind of have it filed under there under a journal. So I thought, let me get to what all the emotions are that I'm feeling right now. Because I know it's not just one thing. And I thought probably the best way for me to express everything that I'm feeling would be to write about it. And I tried, I think to verbalise and even just with my husband even just trying to verbalise it, I don't think I was getting everything out until I started writing it down. So that was really why I went to the writing down, I think the letter seemed appropriate, because that's, I haven't really taken the time to process the impact of the disease on me. Certainly, I know, like, we've been a little bit more in survival mode, to be honest with you just trying to set up therapy appointments, go to therapy appointments, get adaptive equipment that he needs, just trying to figure out, okay, you know, and they sent us to get for him to get fitted for ankle braces and trying to navigate Okay, where do I go for that? So there's been a lot of different pieces that we've had to set up. And now that things are more settled, like, Okay, we have times, twice a week for therapy. And we kind of know what our flow is with that we know what your routines are, like, kind of getting in a new routine for us. And I think maybe that brought up some emotions, since I was perhaps getting out of some of that survival mode. I mean, this really just happened, like two months ago that we got the diagnosis and a lot has changed with his disability in terms of in the last few months in terms of some of the decline of his balance. So the work constantly, I think, kind of shifting and shaping like, Okay, what's next. And so that was part of my process. And my evaluation this weekend was, I need more help. And my husband needs more help. And we can't like I can try to do all the things. But I know for myself, that's unrealistic. I can't expect myself to like, be Betty Crocker making dinner every night and caring for my daughter and making sure my husband gets a nap every day and working full time. And, you know, trying to do this podcast. So that allowed me to say like, Okay, let's try to figure out if we can get somebody in here a couple times a week, even just to like, provide some respite care for you have somebody maybe help with some cleaning different things, so that we can get some needs met and make sure that our household stays running and functional, because I think I had been trying to do a lot of that and then realising my own limitations.

Kristen
Absolutely. And it's vulnerable to say, Yeah, I need help. I can't do it all. Yeah, impossible. Like there's no way for your emotional, mental physical well being that you could do all that right. And now you're saying I need help, like I need to have support system here in place. Oh, vulnerable is that to say because I know a lot of people that's really hard to say I need help. whatever area it is.

Carrie
What's really shifted for me on that is our church family has been super supportive of us. Our immediate families are in another date. And so our church family has really stepped up and been able to like provide some rides for us to appointments, they brought us over meals and different things. And so I think accepting that help and knowing that there are people in our circle that do want to help helps a lot. So I'm kind of asking some of that circle to see if they're, they know somebody that might be interested in some part time, work around the house, like a college student, or something of that nature that could just come in and provide some respite. So my husband can take a nap, because fatigue is is real with his disorder. And that's something that's gotten worse. So finding all of those pieces to put together as far as like what we need for the next step of the journey. But I think for us, it's like really tempting to be like, Oh, well, we need this. And we need that that we don't need right now. That would be ideal, but we don't need that right now. So yeah, as far as like future thinking,

Kristen
Yes. I wanted to circle back to a couple things you said on OCD at the beginning, and anxiety, first of all, this whole idea of uncertainty. Like we really don't have any guarantees, like here you are two months ago, before this, you just living your life. And you never know, like how things are going to shift. We don't know one minute from another, how do we develop a tolerance for uncertainty?

Carrie
Yeah, that's so good. I think what I see a lot of times with my clients is helping them recognise that they have the inner resources to be able to handle life, and what life is going to throw their way, a lot of times, they already have those inner resources, and it's just really building up their strength set to help them become more confident to know like, Okay, I do have that within me, I've in a lot of times, they've already been through a lot of hard things. And I'll say that you've already been through a lot of hard things, and you made it you survived on the other side. So why you're telling yourself that the next hard thing that's gonna hit you is just gonna wipe you out and injure you up in the foetal position. Like, it just doesn't make logical sense from what everything else that you've already told me of what you've made it through. And I've been through a lot of difficult things in my life as well. And so that's something that I've kind of had to tell myself is, okay, I know I worked through those difficult things in my life. And this is another challenge that's presenting itself. And I know that I can work through this, and that I have support. And I do have people that love me, I do have an incredible husband who's very positive in his process, who's very motivated to be engaging in his therapies and do the best that he can do with whatever his limitations are. So a lot of good things going on there.

Kristen
Yeah, so it's helping people realise that you do have the resources, even though your thoughts, and the fear tells you, you can't handle it, you can't get through it. So if they're going through a divorce, a loss, a breakup, bankruptcy, whatever the thing is, helping somebody see that you can get through it, you do have the resources, you just might not believe you have the resources.

Carrie
In my work, a lot of times, it's tapping into those adult parts of self, like we have adult parts of self, we have wounded child parts of self. And that's a very simplistic, you know, explanation of it. But a lot of times, it's the wounded child that's been hurt or was in the situation where they were powerless, helpless out of control. That's the part that's coming forward and saying I can't do this. They're kind of like raising the sign saying, like, Stop, I can't handle it. Whereas really tapping into that adult resource part of self that has the skills and abilities that has been through difficult things to say like, No, it's okay, we got this. And this is not the same thing that you went through in the past, you're an adult, now you were a child, then you were powerless back then you're not powerless. Now, there's a lot of different dynamics going on. You didn't have the support then but you have the support now. So a lot of those kind of like conversations happen in the processing of trauma a lot of times with my clients.

Kristen
Yeah, there's a great book called there are no bad parts by Richard Schwartz. newest book, he kind of developed internal family systems, which you're talking about here with the adult self, the inner child parts. And that book really embraces how to access more of the adult self and tend to the inner child parts that are scared that are in survival mode that might be fight flight freeze, or fawn, which is that people pleasing response to try to gain some self protection. That's how you learn to get through things. And now we're really I love how you said the adult self. Having that knowing really strengthening that adult self. So those resources within you can really be believed that you can do it. How do you see anxiety and uncertain Tea playing together,

Carrie
I think about a lot of clients who are afraid of whatever the next thing is for them. So it could be I'm afraid of this presentation that I have to give for work, I'm going to bomb I'm going to not do well. And then they're gonna want to fire me the language that they're talking about in those situations. It could be a or a client that has obsessions, they may have obsessions about throwing up in public passing out all kinds of things. And then there's going to be this social embarrassment fallout of it, they may have obsessions about germs or other things getting really sick, especially with cold and flu, season COVID, all of that. And the uncertainty that lives in all of those things, there is no way for us to know exactly how the work presentation is going to go. Or if we're going to get sick with COVID or the flu this year. But then we have to say, Okay, well, what I'm going back to that what's in your control, it's out of your control. So I can wash my hands, I can practice good hygiene, I can wear a mask, or I can do these different things that may help me like prevent from getting sick. It's not 100% guarantee, though, and so I have to live with that uncertainty, I have to say, Okay, well, I did my part to wash my hands, practice good hygiene, not be around people who are sick, but I still may get sick, and if I'm sick. And so instead of going then to that route of like, I can't handle it, because that's usually where it goes next, oh, gosh, I'm not gonna be able to handle it. If I get the flu, I'm going to be out of work for two weeks, and I'm going to be end up in the hospital or whatever that scenario is, it's not going to be good then to be able to say, Okay, if that does happen, I will be okay. Somehow, it will all work out. In the end, I will get the support that I need, I will get the medication that I need, I'll get the help. And I can get through this. Even if that does happen. It's going to be okay. And so when people can get to that confidence place, have in that resting peaceful place of like, okay, this is okay, this will be okay. Somehow,

Kristen
I was working with the client a while ago, I will give a different case scenario, but we were doing EMDR. And the fear was throwing up in the classroom, it really wasn't about throwing up in the classroom are really tied back to a memory of his dad having a heart attack and the ambulance coming. And feeling like oh, that bad. I mean, it seemed like it had nothing to do with that. But somehow in the neuro network, which means our brain connected, the fear of loss to getting sick. And so that's why I love EMDR because it can get to what is maybe going on with those ruminating thoughts or that fear that obsessive compulsive part of you, that may be frozen in time, because it's associated with something else that got connected to that fear. And that's why I love EMDR because I'm like, Whoa, because I couldn't I didn't do that I just simply like we just as EMDR facilitators, we help facilitate the process, but the brain and the body help show us where we're stuck, what got stuck in time. And that's what I love about working with anxiety. Is there something that maybe you didn't get to process as a child grief, whether it's grief or loss or trauma or abuse of some sort, but you didn't get to process it in real time. So you're kind of frozen in time a part of you is stuck in that time period. And I feel like a lot of anxiety does go back to things that did not get witnessed empathically love Peter Levine's quote about when we can have an empathic witness what that does to our nervous system and our body. So powerful. How much do you think anxiety and OCD is tied to processed experiences of the past?

Carrie
I feel like it's so tied to that. And I think that's why I can get frustrated a little bit with more specifically the OCD community, because they are trying to say ERP is the only way only pathway to freedom and unfortunately, I've had clients with OCD and PTSD combined who were more triggered and got worse by trying ERP

Kristen
and exposure therapy just Yeah,

Carrie
exposure and response prevention. Sorry, getting too technical again, but I get frustrated because I really feel like people should have options and if they feel like one thing is not working for them that it's okay to try something different. What I've noticed about OCD specifically is there are core fears that they have and so a lot of times if we can target the core fear that will die down the OCD symptoms. So core fears maybe like a core fear of separation, which we know is fine. Fundamental to attachment right and can go back to a time where there was separation, even if it was something like a divorce or a parent walking out the door. Those situations are so powerful and often ingrained in our nervous system and in how it's showing up in life today is they're seeking reassurance from everyone in their life, because that wounded like part of self that stuck in that trauma didn't get that reassurance at the time. So yes, I really believe there's traumatic roots to a lot of these things that if you can go address like that core fear, or sometimes the core fear with OCD is kind of going back to what we said, like, whatever it happens, I'm not going to be able to handle it, I'm going to go crazy, because let's face it, having some of these obsessions and the themes that come along with them the harm, feeling like you're gonna harm someone or harm yourself hurt a child, people think I must be crazy to even have this thought, in turn my mind. So I talked with another clinician recently who said having OCD is somewhat traumatic. And that made so much sense to me, I thought, yeah, I think you're right, especially when sometimes people start having these symptoms very young, and they don't know what they are. So then they feel very terrified by them. And so sometimes that's what we process, we go back with EMDR. and process them having these obsessions or having these urges to reassurance seek or whatever the situation was. And that can really provide a certain level of freedom. Sometimes it's targeting the shame piece, because shame can be really huge and anxiety and OCD. So really, like kind of like what you said, with EMDR. Just getting back to what is the root of the issue. With exposure therapy, I feel like a lot of times we're trying to deal with the surface level of the weed and trying to kind of cut pieces off of it instead of really getting down to the root and digging it up. And if we don't do that it's going to continue to grow back. Exactly, it may just go back differently. It may look like a different theme or a different worry or different obsession that will still be there.

Kristen
Why does it take seven years do you think for someone to get diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder?

Carrie
To be honest, I don't think that some clinicians recognise it who treat anxiety because there are so many clinicians that treat anxiety. It's one of the most common mental health disorders, right? So if if somebody comes in and they say, especially since some of these themes are so different, right, so someone may even have some relationship themes where they're like, MC is coming to therapy and say, I'm not really sure if I should be with my boyfriend or not, I'm not sure if he's the right person for me. And it could be if you don't dig a little bit deeper, ask certain questions, you may not realise that that person is having obsessions about breaking up with their boyfriend, or their boyfriends going to break up with them or trying to seek reassurance from their boyfriend all the time, like, Do you really love me? Do you really care about me? And if you don't know, to really dig in and ask some of those questions, it just looks like a person who's anxious about their relationship. So a lot of times people will present with anxiety. And I'll say, has anybody ever said anything to you about OCD? Because it really sounds like some of these symptoms are in line with OCD. And sometimes that's not surprising to them at all. Maybe they've done their own research or googling other people are like, really? Like, are you sure that's the first time I've heard that, and it can be kind of a shock to their system. I think another reason it takes so long is due to the shame of it. People are very hesitant to talk about what's going on in their own head because it's scary. And it's understandable. So just like even normalising that, yes, some of these thoughts are really hard to talk about. And sometimes you feel like when you start to talk about them, it brings them on more strongly. And then you're dealing with those urges, compulsive urges as well.

Kristen
I'm wondering too, as when you talked about the target, know, your core fear? How do people identify their core fear? How do you work with people that identify their core fear? Yeah, I

Carrie
think sometimes I'll just kind of have them go down the line of thinking and kind of keep asking the questions. So it's like, so you're telling me that you're having obsessions, let's say it's about going crazy, okay, and that you're going to end up in a mental hospital. So if that happened, like, Okay, keep going. Because a lot of times people will stop with their fear, right? And you if you say keep going, tell me the rest of that story. So So you're in the mental hospital and then what? Well, then I will be separated from my family. And it's like, oh, okay, so what is that, like that sense of being separated from your family? And I wonder if that fear comes Thumbs up in other areas or other places? Oh, well, yeah, I'm afraid that this is going to happen or that's going to happen. So it's more not getting them to just stop with the obsession, but like going a little bit pushing past that just a little bit to ask some more questions about. Okay, and why is that a problem if that happens?

Kristen
Yeah, I think you identified a core one, the separation, some people would say abandonment, that's another one, and then seeking reassurance. I think that's a big one. And people don't realise if you've had any surgeries as a young child, maybe you are in NICU, things like that there's a separation there. Yes, lay. So it can be what we call in our field, like sometimes we have an implicit memory, which is we don't really have like, I might not be able to verbalise it, the memory or an explicit memory, which is something I do cognitively remember, and I can articulate, there can be a memory stored that you might not be aware of in your body and in your brain. So I think that's interesting. I think that is a core fear, I think if you honed in on that one as an example. And I think that's a great example, because so many people have that fear. What would be your top three recommendations? Would you say for somebody dealing with anxiety, and just facing uncertainty?

Carrie
Well, I think one of the best things that you can do is practice mindfulness, I really believe that just learning to sit with what's here in the present moment, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable. That's such a huge thing. And there's so many different resources on that free apps that you can find YouTube, meditations, but just really learning to sit with yourself, we don't do that enough as our society, we're entirely too busy running around, doing all the things that we haven't learned to be. And I think that's where maybe some other cultures have as beat as Americans, just speaking to American culture, I think other cultures have learned to be more than we have, we've learned to do they've learned to be. And then another recommendation I would have is to have your support system to understand like, who is a part of that and in seeking out healthy senses of support. And if you don't have that personally, or you feel like your personal support is not enough, finding some professional support to walk alongside us. so huge and so valuable. I mean, we as professionals know this, because we end up having our own therapist, from time to time when we're going through life stuff, it's as helpful, definitely helpful. And I think the third thing is that way of finding the way to let go of those things outside of your control, because that is where uncertainty lives like those things are outside of your control. For me, that's a spiritual way of just praying and making a decision to let go for other people. That may be just an acknowledgement or an awareness to say like, Okay, this is out of my control, and I need to consciously let it go. I don't have to continue to hold on to this or to try to control it in some way, shape, or form, because I can't, I cannot control the things that are going on in my world.

Kristen
Yeah, those are great. Those are great, great tips. Where can people find you if they're interested in learning more about podcast and you.

Carrie
So hopefully, anxiety and ocd.com. It's the name of the podcast and the name of the website. So we're really easy to find online. And you can find us wherever you listen to podcasts, there's a contact form on there. If people want to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. We also have a free relaxation download for joining our email list. And we'd love to kind of give you some updates about what we're doing hope to be launching course at some point for individuals with OCD. So I'm very excited about that, specifically kind of targeting some Christian resources as well.

Kristen
Fantastic. Carrie, thank you for sharing your journey with us and your vulnerability. And I know it's still so fresh and new. And for you to open up and share with our listeners, I just want to say thank you, because you're helping other people know that they're walking through uncertainty, and we don't know like, they may feel overwhelmed by what's going on in their own life. So your vulnerability is helping others. And I'm so grateful for you and the work you're doing in the world. And thank you for being on the podcast today.

Carrie
Thank you for having me. It's been a good conversation.

Kristen
Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share it with a friend or family member For more information about how to get connected visit Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice b o ice.com. Thanks and have a great day.