Kristen
Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice pathways to healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Kristen Boice
Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast I am beyond thrilled to have this conversation about healing and wisdom, and just life's journey with a former spine surgeon. And he's channelling his wisdom into helping other people find this freedom, and this flow and this ease and life. And I'm excited to introduce Dr. Krishna, I would love for you to tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you ended up doing this work.

Dr. Manoj
All of us who are listening, I believe, deep down, we're the same human being. So I regard myself as an ordinary human being. And I used to be a spine surgeon for about 30 years. And I was just moved by the suffering of children and well, adults everywhere. And I thought if we could share with them this or help them connect with their own wisdom, which comes from a deeper understanding of themselves. Not only could they help, that could help transform their own lives, but it could make the world a better place. So I wrote a couple of books. One is called Understanding the understanding you the other one's called stress free. I work with children for five years, and discovered they already had this wisdom. And I thought if we can bottle this understanding and share it with the world, we could change the future of humanity. I really think so. So we set up the human wisdom project, we built the human wisdom app, which is out there. And this magic comes from something really simple, which is just looking and learning about yourself. And let's see where that conversation goes. I'm looking forward to it.

Kristen Boice
I am as well. How did you decide that you were going to retire? Would you say you retired from being a brain surgeon? After 30 years?

Dr. Manoj
Well, I left medicine, I It feels like a calling. I don't know if you've ever felt that calling inside that you keep thinking somebody else is going to step up. Some politician, some leader, some famous person. But now I realise the problems of the world are not going to be solved by politicians. They're going to be solved by people like you and me. Ordinary Joes. We're going to transform our own lives. That's the best and most amazing thing we can do. And that is going to cause this ripple effect and change the world.

Kristen Boice
Where do people start? You because you kind of alluded to this idea that children already have this within themselves? Where do people begin to access?

Dr. Manoj
Okay, so that's a very good question. By the way, I'd always have it to you and I, every human being has it. Let me put it differently. Everyone has the ability to learn to swim. You've got two arms and two legs, you can then once you decide you want to learn to swim, then the door opens and there are lots of possibilities. First thing you got to do is learn how people are swimming, maybe, then you got to get in the water and start. No amount of reading books about swimming is going to teach you how to swim, right. So it's really simple. You begin with nature. Nature is the greatest teacher. You learn to look at a bird flying across the sky, and just notice the detail or you stop at a tree and notice and don't name the tree. Just notice. I can oak tree has 2800 species living in it. And we don't even notice one if we walk past it. Just as you notice a tree or a bird. You can notice a thought or a feeling. So there are only three steps to this journey to wisdom. The first is to notice I am angry. For example. The second is to accept or to suspend judgement. It's not somebody else's fault. It's not my fault. I'm just curious what's going on here. And the third step is what opens the door to wisdom is to ask a question. What's going on in my mind, to make me feel this way? So observe, accept, and ask a question to yourself. And it's really that simple. So it's the art of inquiry. And the human wisdom app has nine modules explaining how that's done. So when you ask yourself, Why am I angry? Not Kristen has caused my anger, because she didn't call me on my birthday, whatever. What's going on in my thinking, to make me angry? Let me realise I'm hurt. Why am I hurt? I'm hurt because an expectations not being met. But I didn't know that in the beginning. Where did that expectation come from? Ah, it's come from me. So am I the cause of my own anger. But again, we're suspending judgement. We're just observing and learning. So I realised my expectations are behind my feeling of being hurt, which then caused my anger, which caused more problems for me in life, right. So now I'm going to ask where my expectations come from. Then I realised that come from my many conditioning influences have grown up. Whatever culture I grew up in, I grew up with expectations that are normed for that culture. And I meet someone who's different, you can see the reaction. Because I become attached to my conditioning. I'm not even aware, I'm conditioned. So I tell you a story, which was beautifully, yes. When I first got when I came from India, I came with two bits of conditioning. The first is, I should look after my parents as they got older. Okay. Every buddy in the country does that. The second is that women should do all the housework and the cooking. You can imagine how much conflict that caused. But if you had challenged me, I would give you 100 reasons why I'm right, and you're wrong. Because everybody, I would just hang out with people who believe the same thing I did. And I'd look down on people who were different, and say, Oh, they'd have no, you know, whatever, I'd be critical. But the day I woke up and realised that my thoughts and my feelings, and my actions come from my unconscious conditioning influences, which I wasn't aware of, and yet I had become attached to them. And I just asked a simple question. How does this conditioning impact my life? Can I question?

Dr. Manoj
And then I realised, it's really good to look after my parents, they looked after me, it's normal. And I did till the past. But then you realise, it makes no sense to expect women to do all the work, right? It's not logical. So what I mean is, the understanding does all the work of bringing the change. So as soon as you see something, clearly, your life changes. And so it just dropped away. Nobody needed to force me to change. You see, because it comes from the inside. The change occurs naturally. And this journey, we've just taken one example of anger, conditioning, but you can take the same process and apply it to everything else.

Kristen Boice
How did you wake up, so to speak, and had this realisation that this was conditioning?

Dr. Manoj
Okay, so I, from the youngest age, was curious about myself. Why do I think this way? I remember when I was 18, I had lots of friends. I remember cycling one day and feeling lonely. And I said, Why am I feeling lonely? Here know, I'm surrounded by so many people. And then of course, you begin a journey of reading and once you're curious, you realise everything I'm saying, by the way, isn't new, it's as old as the hills. There are people before me and will come after me who've said the same thing. The key is to begin walking yourself. To ask yourself those questions to look inside yourself. You see what we I take this example, he has a glass of water. And here are 1000 books that tell you what water tastes like that Waters was most of us are content to read the books and repeat them and become experts and teach others what's in the books. But we never discover it for ourselves. It's like, trying to learn to swim by reading a book of doesn't. So the simplest way, looking and learning what's going on. Begin with nature. Observe, accept, ask a question, to learn. If you have a mind that's curious, open to learning, passionate, but understanding that you can do it yourself. You don't need anyone else.

Kristen Boice
How does fear play into it? Because, for example, the swimming metaphor. So someone has fear, and fear becomes the block, which I work with a lot of people with a lot of fears.

Dr. Manoj
Yes, I agree. Okay, so this is a really interesting thing. So say, I'm afraid. And then I come up with the idea that I don't want to be afraid. So I try not to be afraid. I read all the books about fear, I go to everyone. No matter what I do a conflicts of the wisdom approach says let go of the idea of trying not to be afraid. Let's explore it in the same way. What do I notice? I'm afraid. I accept. It's coming from me. And then I ask a question, what's going on in my thinking, that creates this fear. And then I realise it's just overthinking. It's a thought process. It's thinking that creates fear. So thinking can't fix it. As Einstein said, right, the same mind that creates the problem can fix that problem. Alright, so then I say, right, I'm overthinking and that's what's causing. So then, I'm going to study the nature of fear, I'm gonna actually study fear, not that particular cause of it. I'm gonna study fear itself. What can I learn about fear? Then I learned so many things that my mind exaggerates. It imagines things that don't exist. When I talk to children, I said, How many of your fears come to pass, and they said, I can't think of one. That's actually happened, the thing that happened, I wasn't even thinking would happen, but. And so when you ask a 10 year old girl, it's the root cause of fear. She said, It's your imagination planner. Or the answer to fear, then is acceptance. So suppose I'm afraid I'm going to get cancer. I don't have cancer, though. But I'm afraid I'm going to get cancer. If my mind can fully accept this, okay, if it happens, you'll deal with it. Because the mind that worries as you know, doesn't worry about one thing and worries about 1000 things. But we think the answer lies in fixing those 1000 things we're afraid of. But actually, the answer lies in understanding the root the underlying process behind that, as you know, so if you can accept, whatever may, or the other game I used to play with, is actually really good for adults, too, is to have three buckets. Bucket one, is you put your fears that have very rare chance of happening, like planes falling out of the sky, so you can forget about those, or fears that are inevitable, like dying. So you have to accept that. Otherwise, you're going to spend your life worrying about it. Then there's a bucket that's left, which is things that may happen that you could do something about and those you can like, if you're sitting in exam, you're going to fail. You just work hard at it. So that's the other way. So there's so many different ways we could deal with it. But all this comes from a deeper understanding of what's happening in our own thinking.

Kristen Boice
How much do you think fear for looking at wisdom and blocks and working through to get to flow like a flow state? How much because we know do you think is rooted in the past trauma? Because we know the body remembers everything.

Dr. Manoj
So I'm going to introduce your listeners to a really strange idea. But it has the potential to heal all past trauma. And it begins with a bird flying across the sky. Just as you watch a bird fly across the sky without thinking, just noticing being with or take a flower, or a tree. If you can be with a flower or a tree completely without thinking, then you can meet a feeling of pain without thinking or you don't know it. But it's your thinking, that is the oxygen that keeps all these feelings alive. Because behind every feeling is a thought. Don't believe me? Okay? Say you're anxious, or you're worried or whatever it is, you're feeling. On 60 minutes, watch your favourite football game. You have no trauma, no pain, no anxiety, because your mind is distracted. The moment you think about that, again, whole thing comes back. So it's linked to thinking. So if you can learn the skill, which is again in the app, to look without language, if you can learn the skill, of looking, of being with something without thinking, the pain dissolves, just like that. And it doesn't come back, because you've seen clearly the link between your past and the present. And you realise life, the gift of life is only in the now. It's only in the present. If you aren't present in your own life, then are you really alive? In approving, of course, trauma is going to occur to all of that. So that's life. But if we can bring our attention to the present, but to do that, we need to understand why we don't why the mind finds it difficult. And for that you need to explore and understand conditioning. Identity. Right? Because our identity gets tied up with our conditioning. I'm American, I'm from the Midwest and from I'm Catholic, whatever religion you am black, white, brown. And so so our mind loves to identify itself with its conditioning. And pain is part of our conditioning. Got it? Whatever we want.

Kristen Boice
There's a belonging there.

Dr. Manoj
There's an attachment. So we also become attached to our pain, and it becomes our identity. We wear it as a cloak, we want to see how I want sympathy. I want external validation for how much I've suffered, it becomes the me once you see that, clearly, and you can see what it's not you. It's what your mind is doing to you. And it's not your mind. Again, it's the mind the human mind is the same. Everywhere in the world, it's the same whether you're in India or America or in Argentina, the human mind is the same. This is what our mind is doing to us. We identify with our past LLP and we become attached to it. We don't want to let it go.

Kristen Boice
Because we've seen it protects us from future hurt,

Dr. Manoj
we don't even show why just it's an attachment, everything that's in my memory, see. So if I want to be free of that pain and live with joy right now. And there's one more reason the deepest human need is love. There is no deeper human need than love. Now the mind that is in pain, call it trauma, whatever stressed anxious, doesn't matter. Angry. The mind that's in pain is preoccupied with its own suffering. We think about ourselves most of the time anyway. But if your mind is in pain is the fire in your brain.

Dr. Manoj
All your attention is on that fire. How much space is left to think about another plus.

Dr. Manoj
There's no space, to be considerate, to be loving, to be kind. And if you are not loving, considerate and kind and caring, you're not going to get that back. And the lack of love just aggravates your own suffering, you see that it's a loop gets aggravated. So that's why this wisdom is so crucial. Because it allows you to live with joy in the present and deal with all this stuff that happens in our head. Because our mind does that to us, right? All our emotions and our traumas and this app, and so on. The clarity, it's like shining a light. And that light dispels the darkness. But you are the like, you can shine it into the darker corners of your thinking. That's the beauty of it.

Kristen Boice
It is powerful. One of the things I've been working on is on attaching to outcomes to really trying to not in a defensive way, in a freedom way. So can you talk about attachments and the process of what that does to us if we those attachments and how to break free of them.

Dr. Manoj
The Buddha said that suffering all human suffering is caused by attachment. And it's clear to see why. If I'm attached to you, you're my wife die or suffer. attached to a pet the pet dies suffer. I'm attached to my car, it has an accident by suffer, kills children, anything. I'm attached to my position. I'm attached to my identity as a great spine surgeon when someone criticises me. I suffer when someone criticises you, you're useless psychotherapist. See what I mean? But the question that's much more important is what makes the mind attached? And I'd like all your listeners to ponder that question, what's going on in our thinking, that makes us attached to thing. And if you really spend time with it, you will realise that we get attached to anything where our emotional needs are met.

Kristen Boice
That's the essence of it's rooted in unmet needs, in my opinion.

Dr. Manoj
By the way, these emotional needs are not yours uniquely, they're human. It's part of being human. So the next, what are these needs well to be enlist and to be understood to for love, for affection, for security, all of that. And the paradox is, we have a need to be listened to, and not the same need to listen. A need to be understood the doctor the same need to understand the need to be loved, but not the same need to love others. So it's an imbalance. We never say I'm looking for someone to give my love to you say I'm looking for love. So the way the mind is wired, that's all it's not being critical. The first thing we have to do on this journey of learning suspend criticism, one judgement. Okay. So we have these emotional needs. Where do they come from? That's the other question. Where do our emotional needs come from? So when a need is met, what happens makes us feel good inside. Secure here's the real key question. We've gone deeper, right? We started out with suffering than we found it was linked to attachment. Then we said attachment comes from emotional needs. And we discussed that when we're saying when an emotional need is met, what happens we say we feel good inside. The here's the key question. Why don't we feel good inside anyway? Let's go going on to not make us feel good inside that then we need something from the outside to fill that space. And that something is when our emotional needs are met. And you could see from that column suffering attachment, but if you go to the heart of it, the heart of it is I don't feel good. And you can use whatever words you want for that. When I talk to children, they call it inner boredom. Somebody else said, the void. Somebody else said, inner loneliness. It doesn't matter what word you use, no matter what word you use, it's not going to tell you what what it is like. As being human, you know that feeling. You know it because it comes also after the great high. You won a competition, you've passed an exam, we've got the job, you got married, the child's done really well in sports, doesn't matter what hires, you bought a new car, you won the lottery. After the great high, comes, the great emptiness, just look at it in yourself is there. So that is the human journey is to understand this feeling of emptiness within, that we carry as human beings, which our mind is constantly escaping from, which is why we seek external validation and all of those things. It's not wrong, by the way. It's just curious what's going on. And I can share the wisdom of a 13 year old girl. And I said to her, so what's the answer to our inner boredom? is a group of children I've got this recorded on video, so you're welcome to watch it. The question often opens the door to wisdom. So I'm just sitting there listening and waiting in this class of children, 10 and 12 year olds sitting. And then suddenly you can see some light go off inside her head. And she said, If I stay with my inner boredom, it goes away. So we can take that journey in once come to that space, where we have this feeling of emptiness, the void, whatever word you use, lonely, bored. And you can meet that feeling. Without language, like watching a bird fly across the sky. It dissolves into peace. And then from that peace, that's the deepest peace, the heart knows every from that sense of peace, all your needs dissolve. Because you want nothing more.

Dr. Manoj
Call it, give it whatever word you want, it doesn't matter. But you have to find out for yourself. And it's within the grasp of every human to live with that deepest sense of peace. And it's an indescribable sense of grace, of beauty of love, all one word. But to reach that point, you have to first uncover all the things that get in the way. And take this journey of learning about yourself. Which is wisdom in the way.

Kristen Boice
Yes, I agree with that. How do you get past more sustainable ways of getting out of criticism and judgement not only to our own self, but to others? Like how do we transcend that and a more long term way because we can do that little bits.

Dr. Manoj
Okay, again, let's start with the simple thing, right? I am criticised. I'm feeling hurt. And blaming Kristen for hurting me. I'm going to suspend judgement for now. I'm going to go on this journey of learning about criticism. I accept is my reaction. So I need to learn about what's going on in my thinking. First of all, what's going on in Kirsten thinking to make her criticise me? Why am I critical of other people? For example? Why do I feel hurt? When I'm criticised? There are two different things. So the first one is simply Why am I critical of others? Look at parents and children. You can see the stand in a room and just watching some parents just like on a constant stream of criticism up to the children not realising the impact and the hurt. It's causing the caring automatically so we're all conditioned My mind automatically, unconsciously without my awareness is comparing what it sees in the world with what it knows. It's doing that unconsciously, automatically, all the time, that anything it finds that's different. It's critical. Now it might express the criticism because a child, that if it's your boss, you may not, you might just keep it to yourself. Or you might just tell your friend after that over drinks. So that's what's going on in our thinking, when we are critical of others. It's an automatic process, which is not to say that being critical is not important. But you have to ask yourself, is it for you or for them? Because every time I'm critical of you, it strengthens my conditioning, of what I regard as right. Got it. And it strengthens the me the sense of I gives a little kick to the ego. And reaffirms that. So when people are critical of us, that's what's going on in their thinking. So you have to wake up to that. So their criticism of you is more a reflection of them. And what's happening in their thinking, then they're your reality in your mind. Having said that, if you said to me manage, you could be a better surgeon, or a better or rater or better, whatever, speaker if you did this. And I'd say, Kristin, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. That's going to help me grow and be a better person. If what you said to me, I look at it and I think that's not true, then I'll just leave it alone. But the reason we get hurt is something slightly different. The reason we get hurt, is because unconsciously we build up these images of ourselves. So say I'm a speaker, founder of the human wisdom project. And someone comes along and says, Manoj, you're a terrible dancer. I just laugh say, You're absolutely right. I've got two left feet. Can you teach me to dance? I'd love it. If you could teach me to dance. I'm a terrible dancer. Someone else comes along and says monarchy and not a good speaker. You know? Why I get hurt? Instantly hurt? I hate you. I'm not going to talk to you again. Why is the difference? Because I have an unconscious image of myself. As a great speaker and wise man. I don't have an image of myself as a dance. This is happening unconsciously. This is what I mean. My mind is doing this to me. Then I realise I go around trying to fish for compliments. I go around, I'm looking for the likes on the software, I put the course out, oh great, talk great, this great. And it keeps reinforcing because it brings that sense of pleasure, again, rooted in the emptiness etc. So you realise that this is what your mind is doing to you. That your own suffering is mostly caused by the way your mind is working, not your mind, the human mind. And shining a light into that space. And going on this journey of learning about yourself.

Dr. Manoj
Not only helps you to live a joy and without suffering or with very little suffering. But it also does one more thing, which is really beautiful. And which the world needs, which is compassion. Because deep down I see Kristen as the same human being that I am. My mind also operates from self interest from conditioning from fear and comparison. It's reactive. My mind unmet emotional needs. Kristin is the same as me. She is not aware of why she's saying this and behaving in this way. And Jesus said, I'm not religious, but I love this line. Lord forgive them for they know not what they do. And know nobody knows what they do. Because they have no awareness of what's happening in their own thinking. They have no awareness of their own conditioning and all One of those things, we think we're in charge of our lives, but we're not really our past is running it for us. So when I talk to children, and I say, you've got two options, do you want your unconscious past run your life? Or do you want to be in charge of your own life? We all say I want to be in charge. I said, then begin your journey to wisdom, learn about yourself. And the beauty is coming from a book. There's no authority required, you just got to drink that glass of water. It's the same water. Everyone can drink from it. You see what I mean? It's the same wisdom we can all tap into?

Kristen Boice
How often do you go through suffering now doing this work?

Dr. Manoj
Very rarely. If it comes, it's so momentary. And every time suffering comes, it's an opportunity for learning about the roots of it in your own thinking. So suffering then becomes a gift, almost, you know, oh, where's that come from? Let's go God, oh, let me find out. And then I go, Hmm, I'm still attached to this, or attached to that conditioning, or I'm afraid of this might happen. And then I do the same work. And meet it without language be with fear, which if it rises, live with compassion, I understand why people do or whatever, understand my own emotional needs, etc. Discover your own deep peace in yourself. And if you can access that, and I'm not saying is always possible. But as you go on this journey becomes easier and easier. And if you can get to that point, there's no more suffering. Because you feel connected to everyone the universe, you know, the world, you feel your place in it. And as I said, No one can tell you what it is like, you have to find out for yourself.

Kristen Boice
How did you learn this? This is what's intriguing to me. How did you learn this? Because it seems like every concept you're deconstructing in, you're breaking it down to the need, like Where's this coming from?

Dr. Manoj
I'd say it's like, you and I are looking at the moon together. I don't own the moon. I didn't invent the moon. I wouldn't say I'm an expert on the moon at all. And if I say, hey, Kristen, these are the three things I learned when I saw the moon today. And you look at it. And it's only true if you see it yourself, right. If you don't see it as a manner, you're telling porkies and I say I'm sorry, yeah, okay, I'm telling. But if you see it clearly yourself, then Manoj doesn't become important. See what I mean? By that says he has a glass of water. And he just drink it. He knows he's not an authority. But if I write the book, which tells you what water tastes like, why become important and the authority. But then you might look at the moon and say, Hey, manage. You didn't notice these other three things about the moon. Also, yeah, Christian. I didn't notice that. Thank you so much. So we're looking and learning about the mind we humans share. That's why it's called the human wisdom project. It's not managed Krishna, the human wisdom project. So all of us can look and learn, but the way our mind functions can share it with each other, grow in wisdom. And together, we ordinary human beings can change the future of humanity. We could end war. If you want I could take a minute to tell you how we could and how this wisdom could

Kristen Boice
Yeah, share that. Okay.

Dr. Manoj
Let's ignore the obvious ones, Russia, Ukraine. Republicans and Democrats. pro gun anti gun pro abortion, anti abortion. Take Belfast, you know, Northern Ireland. There's a wall. It's called the peace wall. I don't know why. But it's a wall, which used to divide the Catholics and Protestants. You say you're Catholic and Protestant. We grew up hating each other. We never asked why. And if my leader said Go and kill Kristin. I'll say, Yeah. Give me the gun. I'm ready. They tell me she's done. She's terrible. She's done bad things. I'm ready to come and kill you. And they did. All your leader says, Kristin, go and kill Manoj he's done bad things you'll say Yeah, sure. And I asked this question of 10 year olds, I said, if your leader tells you to do something, are you going to do it? Or you're going to ask why? This girl said, I'll just do it. I said, why? He said, nobody's asked me that question. So the secret lies in asking the question, why do I hate somebody I've never met? And the moment I asked that question, or we both ask that question, we realise it's just our unconscious conditioning on either side of that wall. We've been conditioned by one set of stories, you've been conditioned by another. And this conditioning comes from generation to generation. And yet, we're attached to it right? To the store, I've just read a different storybook to you. But the process in you and me, is the same. Deep down, we're the same human being my right hand would never go to war with my left hand, because it's attached to the same body. So this journey of learning about ourselves awakens, this compassion, this wisdom, and this deep realisation that you are the same, we are all, not only you and I are the same human being. But we are the same living being as other living beings on the planet. The physicists are telling us that the quantum physicists are saying, Einstein said, You're just a vibration, vibrating bundle of atoms and the same atoms vibrating in that tree. So this realisation could then war, could act violence, could then do division. The Republicans and Democrats in America the end so on, could also end addiction. Because addiction is not linked to drugs, alcohol, and food, or the phone, it's caused by human thinking. So asking what makes the human mind prone to addiction, then opens the door to again, a deeper learning. And in that deeper learning, the problem can be resolved. Shining a light, you're into relationships, like all your customer, patients, or clients come with relationship challenges. And they even asking that simple question. What makes human beings unsuccessful what's going on in my thinking? And again, it's the same thing. It's conditioning, I'm attached to how I want this world to be where he'd gone holiday, what pizza water. And I want you to think like me, because it makes me more comfortable. And you want the same moment, we see that this piece. So there's a tremendous beauty. And there's a tremendous simplicity in this to you see that. And I hope your listeners do too, because it's something indescribably simple and beautiful at the same time.

Kristen Boice
And I think, as we're humans, we think simple, might not feel simple. To some at the beginning, when you're learning to, I guess, explore and question and give yourself permission to do it. Because it's children. A lot of times we weren't allowed to question why it was threatening our belonging, it was threatening our safety and security. It was threatening our basic needs. So oftentimes, I work with clients there for the first time. This is scary to begin questioning everything to begin exploring because the threat of not belonging, the threat of something bad happening, the threat of no longer feeling safe and secure and what they know. feels scary so that they shut that down sometimes.

Dr. Manoj
Yes, Aldous Huxley said in 1963, most human beings are content to live with their suffering, because they're frightened of looking at themselves. That exactly what you're saying. And the main thing to communicate to all listeners, swimming is not so hard. learning a musical instrument. You don't have to be frightened. On the other side of your fear, lies, freedom, lies, joy, lies, beauty lies, the end of suffering. And

Kristen Boice
working with those thoughts, it's working with the thoughts of I'm afraid, I'm afraid, I'm afraid I'm afraid of something bad happening. Yes, I'm afraid of because something might have bad, quote unquote, right, bad happened, they lost children, they lost a loved one, they had a tragedy happen, a natural disaster or something. And they're afraid of going through the pain again.

Dr. Manoj
But here, look, all we're doing is looking and learning about ourselves, we already exist. So already in there. All we're doing is looking and learning and uncovering one layer after the other, to connect with the wisdom that's already there in us in you and me and every human being. And we're here to make that journey simple and easy for you. There are people in the world, human wisdom project is one but there are others as yourself, right. And so the human was the map. For example, if you don't want to see someone, you can do it in your own home and privacy. You know, you've just started your journey of learning and we hold your hand we walk you through step by step. And there's no authority. That's the fantastic beauty of this. I don't have to put anybody on a pedestal or be controlled by anybody. Right? I don't have to belong anywhere. I can be do this at home and my time. And all I'd say is take the first step. It's often the hardest one. I met an Aboriginal elder. When I was training in spine surgery in Australia, he had this beautiful black face, thick skin, gleaming eyes with light was a young man. I said, What advice would you have for a young man to starting out in the world? I was under 30 ethic. And he said, traveller, there's no path. parts are made by walking. So if you want to be free of suffering, you've got to take the first I love that I have to do the walking

Kristen Boice
the truth, the truth? Yes,

Dr. Manoj
you have to do the walking, nobody can walk for you. Nobody can learn to swim for you. Nobody can get in that water for you. Yes, there are coaches that help with but first, get in the water. Start learning. And as Rumi said, Just come away from this field of your own suffering. Come to this other field where you're just looking and learning without judgement. And you'll find this beauty for yourself.

Kristen Boice
Beautiful, how do people find more about you and the human wisdom project in the app? Can you share a little bit about that? Okay, if anyone's interested?

Dr. Manoj
Sure. So you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Manoj Krishna. I think the human wisdom project is just human wisdom.me. The app human wisdom is one word is on the Apple and Google Store. The two books I wrote are on Amazon. First is called understanding me understanding you and inquiry into being human. That's the tagline. And the second book published this few months ago was called stress free. And the tagline is understand yourself. Discover wisdom, be free.

Dr. Manoj
By the way, I take no ownership of any of these ideas or there is old as the hills. Because the moment you make yourself an authority, then someone else thinks, oh, I can't do this. It's not for me. I'm just an ordinary Joe. But you don't need a degree to learn to swim. You don't need to have been even able to read and write to appreciate a tree to feel the beauty of a sunrise in your heart. Similarly, this journey of looking and learning about yourself is really simple. In fact, it's so simple that our educated minds get in the way

Unknown Speaker
For sure. For those

Dr. Manoj
who are interested, there are lots of resources available. There deliberately, we've kept the cost of everything right down, just so that it's accessible by everyone. And every human being has this ability or opportunity to discover this wisdom for themselves, change their lives, and make the world a better place.

Kristen Boice
Thank you so much for the work you're doing in the world, your heart and your energy is so appreciate you and our talk today in your time. Thank you so

Dr. Manoj
very much. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Kristen
Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. And for more information about how to get connected visit Kristen k r i s t e n d Boice BO ice.com. Thanks and have a great day.