Kristen
Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice, a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing Counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode so be sure to subscribe

Kristen
Welcome to this week's Close the Chapter podcast. I am so happy you're here with me because I have such an important guest. She's been on the podcast, this may be your fourth time.

Rachel
I think we have four episodes at least.

Kristen Boice
You're the first repeat

Rachel
guest recurring guest I call it on TV l they call it a series regular. Regular. So

Kristen
I am excited to introduce you Rachel Hall is a licenced health counsellor, you're a therapist nonetheless. And we work together at pathways to healing counselling. And you specialise. Also in EMDR, brain spotting trauma work, you work a lot with first responders and have really expanded the imprint of what you're doing with police officers, firefighters, the list goes on me and you want to fill in here.

Rachel
I think you covered it, I think the demographic of first responders with all the trauma that they experienced, particularly law enforcement officers, never in a million years did I imagine that's a demographic that would sort of become this quote unquote, specialty for me. And yet it is. But now I would also say they're human. Right. And so what I do with my other clients resonates with them, too, when given the opportunity to learn it. And so it's just it, there's overflow, but then there's also this unique quality about police officers, first responders that somehow I landed in, and I kind of love it. So it's hard, and I love

Kristen
it. So you're so good at it.

Rachel
You're really you're very nice.

Kristen
You really are. I mean, this is a part of what we're going to be talking about today, which is about shame stories that we all have, how much of the time, are we in a shame story. That's the both of you and I do in our own personal lives in with each other, we'll say the story I'm making up is or I'm in a shame spiral. And the story I've made or creating in my head is, and we say that loud to each other. And that is so powerful. Even with your first responder work, you really, I would say infiltrated this shame piece. So they understand what shame is. For all our clients in general, it's an important part of our work, would you say?

Rachel
100%? I think it is absolutely part of the human experience is shame in and of itself. And the stories that we write in our minds that we believe to be so true, so true. And sometimes they protect us, we think, and sometimes when we're young, they do protect us to sort of guess the thing that the person is thinking. But for so many of us adults, we've carried this protective part of us via the shame story into everyday adult life. And then we wonder why we're struggling in relationship and connection. And this topic you asked if I'd come on and talk about it. And here's why I said yes. Because I know what it's like to function from shame stories. I'm an expert at that. And I have I mean, it just in working with you. Being a part of the pathways team, I have learned more about shame in those, I think we're on your sixth or seventh next month, I've learned so much about what shame does to us, and what it does through us to our relationships. And it is the sort of that hill I will die on. I think because if everyone can understand that this believes that they have the stories that they've written about other people about themselves about dynamics and systems. And we think they're just so completely accurate. If we could give an inch there and say maybe it's not exactly what I think it is. There's so much room to move from surviving in life and to thriving.

Kristen
I agree 100%. For those that don't know what shame is, or a shame story, how would you define shame? And how would you define the shame story, just for us to have a foundation in place?

Rachel
Right. But I think any of us who have you sort of heard that concept of shame, probably have some familiarity with Brene Brown who sort of is the shame guru. That's where a lot of us sort of started to hear about it. And I love how she explains that guilt and shame are very different things. Guilt says what I did is wrong, bad, not okay, the problem, whatever fill in the blank shame says, oh, no, that's me. I'm bad. I'm not good enough, I'm the problem. And so if shame wants us to believe that it's a part of our being that is worthless, less than not valuable, unlovable, whatever the shame story really is. And so to answer part B of that question you asked, the shame story comes from that sense of shame that this regulates our nervous system, it always walks hand in hand with fear. And so when I can identify shame, I can almost always go and so I'm afraid right now, there's some fear here. Fear that I'm not good enough fear that I'm gonna fail, fear that they're gonna find me out, they're gonna see I'm a fraud, they're gonna see I'm stupid, whatever that fear might be. And when fears on board, we move into the fight flight or freeze response of our brain. It is by design. And I know we talk a lot about the fawn response. Some people think that's a trauma response versus a survival tip or whatever. It's still there that people pleasing. So fight, flight, freeze, and then people pleasing through the fawning over those around us. fear and shame, limit our opportunities for working through the thing, whatever the thing is, the situation, the circumstances, the memory, the relationship, because it's shut down in that amygdala going nope, your only options here are fight flight, freeze, and fun through people pleasing. And the shame story is I've really struggled because I don't know if it is necessarily just one of those. I don't know if a shame story is a fight response, a flight response, a freeze response, I think it can be multiple, because a lot of our shame stories lead us to fighting, fighting back fighting, the person getting angry, and going for that thing that we think is going to make us feel better if I have more power if I have more control. But I think it's also a flight response. Because it's saying, listen, they're gonna find you out. They don't like you anyway, they think you're too much. They don't think you're good enough. I just gotta get out of here. Whatever that is, so then it lends itself to fleeing. And then we talk about freezing and fawning. If I can just make them happy with me, then they'll love me, then they'll then I'll be lovable. If I could check the things off their list, then they will be good enough. Yes, then they won't leave me. And so shame stories really come from that. There's something innately wrong with me. And I have to I'm like writing the script in my mind without facts, because shame wants us to hide. And so shame stories. Don't go, Hey, I'm gonna check you in on that. Let me ask right. Shame goes, Don't tell him what you're thinking. Don't tell him what you're feeling. But you know, it's true. That's the voice of that shame. And we function from it so often.

Kristen
And I think it's developed very early in our abry Shame. Our parents didn't know about shame. We mean, did your mom go Oh, my kids now say, Don't shame me. And I'm like, Oh, what am I taught ill? This isn't right, that like our parents didn't know this. So

Rachel
it wasn't a topic of conversation at our dinner table. No.

Kristen
And they function from how they were parented doing the best they could. And a lot of how we've parented is from shame, actually, women fear, shame and fear. And so it almost and it gets embedded into our nervous system. And we become almost hyper vigilant. I mean, that's where the story writing, we're like, we can look at someone and we're like, see, they looked at me, they gave me that nasty look. And they think I'm an idiot, and I'm stupid. Did you see how they looked at me? Or I have, I'll have clients the other day say, they saw me. It didn't say hi, well, guess what? My other client was a family system. And like, I did not even see them. I didn't know they were there. But the story had already been written. They saw me and didn't say hi. Yeah,

Rachel
and I think those shame stories are absolutely neural pathways in our brain and they are at with clients in the area that we live in. We have I 465 It's a highway that goes or interstate I guess would be i 465. Anyway, whatever it is. It's a really nice four lane I think or eight lane four lane one way I'm not explaining this very well. I bet it goes in circles around the city. And that's literally you can drive all day long in circles on i 465. And that's the shame story. This is this just is what it is. And it is real and I am believing this I'm taking this neural pathway all the way home because I am right well that is 465 we are going to be spinning in circles and not get anywhere. In order to get off of this lane to nowhere. We have to calm the nervous system down with that deep breathing thing I know you and I both love so much. And we have to choose to get off the interstate. And that road feels to me like the road I took going to the African safari I took it was bumpy, we had to pull over a couple times. So a couple of us could throw up because it was so miserable. It just doesn't feel good. And yet it gets us to Safari, it gets us to this bucket list item, where it's like, Oh, my goodness, I would never have experienced this if I'd stayed on for 65. And so sometimes we have to really build up that intentionality have choosing to take the road to Safari that we know is going to be hard, it's going to be different. It's rewiring a neural pathway that feels so comfortable. So there's going to be discomfort. And yet, it's the only way we get to somewhere really good.

Kristen
And this is what people are so afraid of we like certainty. So if I write the story, and I don't really know how the other person feels in I have already written the story, my brain goes, Okay, I like certainty, I like predictability. I like the known factor. So I'll just predict what this person is going to say or feel or how they feel about me and knock it off on the exit aisle, which will keep us on for 65. Right? In my body stay hijacked is what it was because my body remembers everything. So my body will stay in that hyper vigilant state unless I get off on the exit. And I start fiddling with on the bumps, right and breathe in through the bumps. And how would you say someone can check in with a story with somebody like how does someone check in with their stories?

Rachel
Well, and that's a great question. I learned this last week, actually, from a client asked her permission to share this. She has done enough work for herself and with me on this, that I caught it with her and I was so proud of her. And I thought that's excellent. She was writing a story about interaction with a family member. And she said I'm sure that she meant and she just took a deep breath. And I watched it happen. And I was like, yes, she's doing it. And she goes, You know what I imagined what she meant was, and I thought, You know what, that's all it takes to get off 465 to get off the road to nowhere. That is a waste of my emotional energy, though. Shame stories are a waste of emotional energy until we know through identifying and bringing it to the attention of ourselves first right to go. Oh, I said I'm sure or I know, that's what they were thinking. Well, I don't read minds. So do I know, I'm checking in with myself first and kind of leaving room to go from I'm sure to I imagine or I think what they were thinking. There's just that little room that says well, okay, but I don't know for sure. And that's enough to get off that exit and go Well, I could ask them. The story I'm telling myself is you meant to imply that I'm stupid, because you said this that or whatever it real or not real. There's a part in The Hunger Games, if anyone's ever read Hunger Games where after pee them a lark, what the male protagonist I guess I'm not up with literary terms. But one of the main characters is literally hijacked. And that's what they call it, his brain is fed erroneous experiences and memories. And that's how the bad guys turn him against the good guys. And so once he is kind of rescued from the grip of the Capitol, he checks in with his friend, Katniss. And he says, so your favourite colour is orange Real or not real? And she will answer Yep, whatever it is, and then you want to kill me real or not real? No. And so I actually use that with clients. Just check in on it. Just go to your spouse, your friend, your child, your co worker, your boss, and there's a lot here right with how safe is that person? How toxic and gaslighting is that person? And what's the danger in that that's, I'm kind of setting that part aside because I feel like you've probably hit on that lots of times in your podcast, but if I have an even a remotely somewhat available, emotionally available person, I can go to them and say hey, I just got to check in on this. So the story I'm telling myself about why you late cancelled my birthday party invitation is that you really didn't want to come real or not real there's a chance to personal go. Yeah, I didn't. I said yes. But I didn't really want to come and I'm sorry that hurt your feelings. Or okay, I know. I know. The truth is hard to Truth hurts sometimes. And yet I can do something with truth. I can feel through it, release the emotion and move forward from it if I know truth, but if I'm spinning over here You're going, they decided that they weren't coming to my birthday party, because they chose to go with those people instead of me and did too. And I don't check in on it. I'm literally stepped on the road to nowhere. And I don't know about you. But since the pandemic, I don't have emotional energy to waste, I am tapped out. I don't want to waste my emotional energy on a road in my mind that goes to nowhere. And so for me, that check in for myself and with others is truly a really protective, beautiful, well, boundaried self care method for me, because I'm really trying to preserve my emotional energy by that check in.

Kristen
And here's the I always think of Tom Cruise in the you can't handle the truth and and I'm like, my nervous system begs for truth. Yes, I feel safer, I feel more authentic. I feel like I can connect with the person in front of me, even if it hurts, even if it's disappointing. So we want to protect ourselves from disappointment. my nervous system goes, I feel safer with you, even if they're hurt now, not brutal honesty, where you're just like vomiting on someone. You're saying, I feel sad, because you're using your I feel statements, or not being this brutally honest, which I don't agree with. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking telling the truth with love and grace, I feel safer. And my nervous system, when someone tells me the truth, and shame doesn't like truth, they can't coexist together,

Rachel
right? It's the antidote. Truth is the antidote to shame. So says Brene, brown, and it's very true. And so I will often have clients make a T chart on their paper. And on one side, it says, The shame wants me to believe dot, dot, dot, and on the other side, and the truth is dot, dot, dot, and I will have them do their deep breathing, regulate their nervous system, try to identify the story they've been writing, and then write it down. And then on the opposite side of that, I'll have them write three to four to five truth statements. And those are hard to find at the beginning. Because you've gone down the neural pathway of the shame story for so long, truth gets lost. And yet, even if I start with the truth, I don't know for sure, I really haven't checked in with that person. I don't know for sure if that's a shame story or not. Or the truth is, I learned that belief. So long ago, maybe it doesn't apply anymore. Maybe it's different. If I can make room for maybe something new, is actually better, healthier, and safer. That is a truth that we really can always write on that right side of the paper in response to any of those shame stories.

Kristen
I think the one thing is important is to kind of know your own tells when you're in shame. Because if we don't know our own tells, it's hard to even recognise a shame story to know where it first you gotta you might even recognise your story. First, you might recognise your body sensations. First. We know we identified together what tells what are your tat, we each identified one of our tells. And mine was repeating myself because I want to feel heard, I want to feel understood. I want to feel enough. I want to feel lovable, and that I'm not defective in some way. So I realised through you and I through your little prompting, that repeating myself is one of those things where I'm trying to be heard and understood, but I'm trying to manage my shame of not feeling good enough. And so kind of recognise some of your tells.

Rachel
And can you tell the story of how we came onto that like, what it was about? Yeah, because I think it's really relatable.

Kristen
Yes, I saw I was making we rotated we were we went to Michigan rotated, who was doing dinners was my turn to do dinners, and I didn't have butter for the Spanish rice. And I'm thinking, Oh, great. I didn't have olive oil. Oh, and I felt like I have to have this perfect meal. In my mind. I have to seem like I'm a good cook. Even though I'm a good cook. I mean, not perfect, but I cook Okay, and I need to have this meal be just so and so I'm like, I don't have any butter. What am I gonna do? So take a dollop of sour cream and I'm like, Oh, that'll do. Okay, put a dollop of sour cream in there. And I start talking to myself. I'm like, and I start talking to them. I'm like, Oh, this is gonna be great. This is gonna be so good. I think this I

Rachel
think this is good. I think it's good at several times.

Kristen
And it's almost like I was soothing my inner child, which was shame a feeling not good enough and it seems silly. It's like It's rice, but it's really not these are the examples of Everyday Things. I was trying to nurture and convince myself like you're enough. This is good enough. And so you'd like to have you thought about and then I had a little cry session because I'm good with that. But I MB was tapping into something deeper which is so important to express

Rachel
Be open to be open to that to that deeper be open. What is this really about?

Kristen Boice
So I got exploring that. And then when you're like, Have you thought about I can't remember who said it that maybe when you're in shame you repeat yourself. And I'm like, Yeah, cuz I want to be heard I want to be feel good enough I want to, so that it became something I noticed I was like, Well, let me sit with that. Let me notice it. That's how it starts becoming a way to heal. What I am self aware enough to go I am repeating myself is this shame is this fear of not being heard and understood? And then you were able to identify? I was,

Rachel
well, you guys identified who we were travelling with identified that my tell when I am uncomfortable or don't have an answer, or don't have a fix, or I just don't want to feel the deeper feeling, I will say, whatever. It's whatever. And it's totally dismissing. I mean, and I've had a rumble with that years ago at a past job when my supervisor actually wrote it in a very critical manner on an evaluation. And he did not handle it well, really, at all. It was very hurtful. And so I moved away from it, right? Because love and grace is what helps move us towards, but you guys said it and brought it to my attention. And I was like, I didn't even know I was still doing that. Darn it. And I've caught it now several times. And the funny thing funny not haha, but like, Oh, rachel, look what you did thing. My youngest daughter, that is one of her tells. It's whatever. I'm like, oh, dear Lord, I've taught that to her. She's using it to move away from the fear and the sadness and the hurt and the discomfort the exact same way her mother does. And all that we really need to do with that is go, You know what, there's information for me there, there's information for my growth, possibly, then my daughter's growth, because if I can identify it in me and heal that part of me, then I can really do something to help grow her as well. And I can model that for her. And so I loved that experience on so many levels, because we all tried so hard to speak the truth with love and grace, because it was out of this part of us going I love you and you don't have to do that. For me. I was trying to say to you, you don't have to tell me 14 times the rice is gonna be okay. Because even if it's not, I love you. We're okay.

Kristen Boice
Rice, and it's no good. Yeah.

Rachel
And how did that rice turn out? We

Kristen
all love her darn good.

Rachel
I'm right. Okay, and we can stay open, we can hear those truths, so much better with grace and love. But here's the kicker, even when someone tells us a hard truth, and it's not very kind, we can take a deep breath, feel the pain of that move through it and still benefit from it. We can still go okay, maybe there's something for me there. And that's the beauty of this openness to go, okay, maybe I'm not certain, maybe I'm not sure that's what they meant. Or that's what they're trying to tell me or that's what they think of me and just open that door to you know what, maybe there's information for me here, maybe I can grow. And maybe I don't know exactly what their meaning. And I

Kristen
think I've had a situation where I did call out a shame story with somebody. And it was horrible. Okay, I poured my heart out. I was saying the story making up is and I really was authentic. I was scared as I'll get out to have the conversation because I knew it was going to be a hard conversation. I knew it was gonna be challenging. My stomach was a wreck. I was talking fast, it felt scary. I was scared. And it went terrible. And guess what, that gave me such valuable information for me to go, that's not going to be a safe relationship for me to continue. And that's okay, at least right now, that was not going to be a safe relationship for me to continue. And that doesn't always have to be the case. I just want to say sometimes it doesn't go as beautifully as we hope it does. When we say the story I'm making up is and I feel sad. And I feel scared. And I feel these emotions, and you're really vulnerable. And sometimes it doesn't go how you hope it will but there's growth and healing for you in it. I promise. Even when it hurts. RB I was crying I was like, Go laid it all out on the line. And at the same time I knew I needed that not to mistreat people, I needed that for my own growth and healing that my worth and value was not tied up until their response to me

Rachel
well, and their response was a truthful reflection of where they were at. So again, we can do so many beautiful things with truth even when it's hard to hear even when it's thrown at us in the hopes that it will hurt us I'm telling you truth will heal. All it will heal. Yes, the most

Kristen
important part of my healing journey is going from oh I've got to accommodate and please everybody to it's okay for me to have my own needs and wants and share those in share how I feel, even if someone is disappointed, upset, angry, disgusted, I can tolerate that. It's like, Oh, it's okay. Because my nervous system loves truth. I realised that my nervous system loves truth. That's what creates safety. So noticing your tells when you're in shame is really important, I think part of the process. The second part of the process is noticing what shame themes you have. And I have clients write a letter to their shame. I have clients say dear shame, and speak truth to the shame about what they really love about like, here's the truth, shame. Here's what we do know is the truth similar to your two columns. And then on the separate sheet of paper, I'll say, Okay, what themes do you see around shame. And one of mine is, I am a bad person. And I don't feel like a bad person. But we know I've talked about this on other episodes, through my relationship with my mom, I would feel like a bad person. So recognising. And then some of my shame stories come from that theme. And it's important to know that theme of what is your shame saying to you? And then how much do you filter and do your shame stories from that theme,

Rachel
right? And my theme, over the years of doing this work is I'm unlovable, I'm really hard to love, I'm too much of this thing, or I'm too little of that thing. And I'm too honest. And all of these things that I've heard at different times, over the 47 years, I've been alive. And all of that goes down to that little girl who's going well, I don't know that I'm very easy to love, then, if I'm too much of these things, or I'm too little of these things, I must be really hard to love. And knowing that is where I tend to go does make it easier to identify the tail and go, Oh, yeah, that's the rub. That thing that they said in jest or in meanness sometimes that rubbed on that wound that goes so deep for me. And what that does, then for me, reminds me, Listen, I got to speak truth to that wounded little part of me who's going but Rachel, you are hard to love, right? The shame wants me to believe that. And if I am not awake enough, in my daily life, if I'm not tuned in and present enough, I missed that. And then it's like heaping, it's like scraping away at this old wound again and again and again. And then wondering why I feel so angry. I feel so irritable, I feel so impatient. I just have to look at that wound and go, Oh, she got scraped open there. I gotta go back in. I got it speak some truth. Truth is like a self. Like a bomb a bomb to the soul. It really is. And again, truth is not always easy. It's almost feel like it's almost always uncomfortable. And yet it is pain that has a purpose that is never, ever missed when we are dealing and functioning in truth.

Kristen
Absolutely. And I think how we get to truth because we've like, Well, how do I get to truth because I really believe the shame stories. I really believe them. For me in my own life, I would say EMDR eye movement, desensitisation reprocessing, and I would also say brain spotting, and deep hypnosis, therapy, journaling, like these are things talking to friends like you, bringing the shame story to light, having some space if I need to walk away and do some self soothing and some breathing because sometimes I need to because the shame is so big, that I need to step away and process noticing my body. So exercise I know for you is one, what would you say? How do you tend to your how have you worked through and how do you continue to work through your shame stories

Rachel
for me, and trust me, I'm so far from perfect in this. And yet I can feel such a difference in my body when I'm doing it well, versus when I'm off my centre and sort of lost in the shame. I just I feel better. I sound better when I'm talking to people, I have a much higher tolerance for the uncomfortable, I'm not quick to snap, I just can connect to that centre, most authentic loving self that I have that I want to be there as much as possible. And so when I'm not when I am overly tired or overly unbounded and extended, I've extended myself too far, or I've stepped on a landmine last week I got a little bit triggered with something that a friend did. And I thought to myself, Okay, it's gonna go one of two ways. You know, this is a trigger for you. I was lied to that was the trigger. And I just thought you've got a choice. You've got a choice. You could go now and respond to this. That's not gonna go well. And this is all my internal dialogue. I'm literally sitting here having a conversation with my son Have I was in my office at home, and I just thought you don't want to do that doesn't feel good to you, it's going to hurt them, because you haven't regulated in order to deal with this. And you've got to be centred and true. So I took a good chunk of time to sit and breathe, and remind myself, it all goes so much better when you do this from a centred place. Now, I immediately went into the conversation after that, and it didn't go well. And so it's not, we're not looking for perfection. Here, we are looking for insight, and curiosity and desire to just show up differently, both for myself and for those around and it takes so much training, it really does. And it's so worthwhile, I would

Kristen
say, the amount of work you do on healing the shame parts and nurturing that it's usually a younger part. For me, I know tied to my eight year old self, when my parents got divorced, it's a lot of it can go younger, it can depending. So I like to ask myself like, Okay, how old is this part. And then when I can recognise that part, I can nurture her. And sometimes it's not easy, because we might not like that part. And we might have to work on that starting to love all of our parts, because there are no bad parts, as Richard sports likes to say, with internal family systems. And when we can start doing the shame work recognising it and your body, recognising your tells, I find that clients then feel equipped outside of sessions to no recognise and then kind of reparent that part, nurture that part, acknowledge that part process it, instead of letting it sit inside, I'm impressed that you are able to go and have the conversation from a more centred place. I think that's really tough when we're really activated.

Rachel
Well, when I think about how the conversation went, and it still wasn't my best, I'm grateful I took 45 minutes to at least get a little bit better. Even though it wasn't my best, I probably needed to sit and I could look back on the conversation to say you needed to wait a day, you needed a full day to work through that hurt, and you deserve to that, and that would have gotten better. And so next time, if I'm present enough and attuned enough, I'll give myself a day. But I'm aware of my trigger still being lied to is a ginormous one for me, and I'm sure there's still some unresolved deeper stuff that I have to get curious about. And I know that that is going to dysregulate my nervous system in a way that I have to intentionally slow down, take those breaths and just go, Oh, rachel, this is about something so much deeper than this one lie, or this one conversation or this one hurt, man, I'm just gonna sit with you. I'm gonna nurture you through this. Because we are not six years old anymore. We are not incapable. We have some strategies, like you deserve to wait to have this conversation. You deserve to take these breaths. I've got you like, that is what my inner dialogue sounds like when I'm really kind of at my best. Not always, but when I'm at my best and it feels so good. And it does. It protects me and it protects my relationships.

Kristen
It does. One of the things I do that I think is really been so helpful for me is almost like right to God like I'm writing to God. Like for help. I'm like, it's an SOS I'm like, I'm sending out the flares. Like I am in a spiral. I am just feeling like I'm a bad mom. I'm feeling just like help help this be okay, help me be okay. Help them be okay. It's like an SLS it I'm writing out all of my fears. Like this is my fear and surrendering it. Because for me that helps my nervous system go you're not alone. And not for everybody. Like some people I know have religious trauma and things along those lines. I just need to know there's something beyond me, right? Helping me through this. And for me, that helps my shame stories, really sue them writing it out, praying over it, asking for help setting up the flares. And it doesn't always like oh, just miraculously, I don't have any more shame. It's just let's not paint an inaccurate picture. It's a process. And I think that's the key here. It's a process. What are some of the things you do when you're in shame? You've named some but what are some just to leave some of the listeners with some practical things. We've given a few tips and tools, what are some other things that you would basically share with the listener on helpful strategies?

Rachel
Well, absolutely. First and foremost, when I'm tense when I feel that dysregulation in my body, as soon as I can identify that I'm off that I'm off my centre, I'm kind of off my best. I take deep breaths, and I in through my nose out through my mouth, slow everything down, and I can see Since the slowdown, it's like my thoughts get a little slower, and my breathing gets a little slower and my shoulders drop a little bit. And, okay, all right now I've engaged that prefrontal cortex and I have so many more options for how to handle what I'm experiencing, besides fight, flight, freeze are fun, those are not always our best options, I want to engage my logic and reasoning centre, so that I can see beyond just those four. And that only comes through that deep breathing. So I am deep breathing very often, if I'm honest, I text in our group chat with you and our friend Roxy, who's a clinician, and I'll say, oh, my gosh, you guys, this just happened. And I need you to pray or speak some truth to me, because I can't always access it myself. Sometimes I'm so deep in the pit that I need that lifeline for a help from a healthy friend, my husband can do that. For me. Sometimes, my therapist can do that, for me sometimes, like I do have some healthy enough people and some resources in my life that I can reach out and go, Yeah, truth is nowhere on the horizon, folks, somebody gives me something, and I get it. And so then I breathe in that truth. I imagine almost like sucking that truth in and letting it fall all inside my body. And then I exhale, the doubt I exhale the shame and make just a little space for maybe I'm not sure, maybe it could be that I don't know exactly what they were thinking or feeling or what they meant by that. And that's enough for me to start then my process of Okay, so my shame story was the truth is, this is where it goes best. This is how I need to handle this, I'm going to give myself time to get there. And then I'm going to re engage in the conversation and check in on it. Hey, the story I told myself last week, when we were talking about that thing was deducted a real or not real. And again, if it's real, and that's what they meant, and they meant to hurt me, it's still information that's going to help me may hurt and it can help as well.

Kristen
One thing you said that I think is really important, as we're kind of wrapping up is we have to sit with the discomfort of on I don't know, I don't know what they're thinking or feeling. Or we have to work on sitting in the discomfort of and I don't know what someone else thinks about me or how they feel

Rachel
when sometimes we'll never know truly, because even if we go check in, they may be unhealthy enough to go. Oh, that's what I meant, even though it absolutely is. And so I love that we have to be comfortable in the discomfort of the unknown. And we have to choose where we're gonna spend our emotional energy, if I don't know, or if they've told me one thing, what good does it do me to hold on to the other thing, truly, it is a waste of my emotional energy. And I so badly want to protect what little emotional energy I have to offer. And so it really is just going okay, if they told me that's not what they meant, I'm moving on. I'm believing them doesn't do me any, you know, because I'm still gonna see unhealthy patterns of behaviour in my relationship. And I'm still gonna know from my gut, who I can trust and who I can't trust. I'm learning those things the hard way, but I'm still learning them. And so I'm gonna come back and I'm just gonna go, Okay, I'm gonna just either not know, because they're not gonna give me a straight answer, or I'm just gonna take the answer they've given me and move on. I'm gonna give myself permission to preserve my emotional energy.

Kristen
Yes, it's so true. I think one of the things that's been a game changer in my relationships, and hopefully for clients is when I have a couple come in, and they are convinced we'll do mirroring where you kind of paraphrase back or verbatim say back what you heard the other person say. And it literally is not at all what the person said. It's through the shame story. It's through their own shame story. So one of the most important things I teach is the mirroring process. So mirroring back, that's Foundation, all my relationships, because what someone can hear back is like, no, did I say that? Did I not say that? Oh, maybe I did say that. But let me get clear on what I'm trying to say. Right? It's for the receiver not or the sender, not the receiver. So sender gets more clear on what they're saying. We think it's for the receiver, it's really not, it's for the person to get more clarity. And that's why when you and your relationships say I feel sad, because the story I'm making up is or the story in my head is an I even like to tie it back to if I can get here this isn't always the case, especially if I'm in a deep shame spiral. But if I am, let's say what's coming up for me is it's reminding me of when my parents got divorced, and they said they were maybe going to get back together, and they really didn't, and I knew they weren't. And it's really tying back to that like that uncertainty. And I just wanted to know, like, Is this happening or not happening? And when you can do enough self work, and you can add that into your shame story and connect the dots and where it's coming from. There is so much ownership It power and healing that comes from that I feel empowered, I'm not relying on the other person to heal me, acknowledge me or hear me, I'm going, Oh, I see where the shame story is coming from. And now I can nurture that part and do something about it.

Rachel
It's freedom, freedom, it's freedom. And I just want to say, as we wrap up to anybody hearing this, it takes work. Absolutely, there is not one single book, or one single three step four step programme that will help you with this. And yet, when you give yourself permission to do the work, it will provide a freedom that you will not know otherwise, you just won't, I can plant my flag of guarantee on that until you do this work. And you really get curious and open and care enough about yourself to want to show up even just a little more open and a little more different, it will positively change so much for you. And I just want people to go you know what, I'm going to do it for me, I'm not going to do it for my husband, I'm not going to do it for my wife, I'm not going to do it for my friends. I'm not going to I'm going to do it for me because it will be freedom for me to show up in ways that move me from surviving an already really hard world to walk through into thriving, and there's not a single person on the face of this planet that doesn't deserve freedom that can be worked for. It truly can.

Kristen
And on that note, I think we're gonna Mike drop it. Thank you, Rachel, for being on the programme, the show the podcast, whatever you want to call this. I have so

Rachel
loved it every time. I

Kristen
love your heart and your wisdom and your soul. And I just thank you so so much for being here today and speaking your truth and sharing what you know.

Rachel
Well, thank you for having me. I love anytime you want me to revisit repriced series regular. Well, thank you.

Kristen
Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. And for more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com

Kristen
Thanks and have a great day.