Kristen
Welcome to the Close the Chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe.

Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast, you matter and are here for a reason. That was the first I wanted to say that you're tuning into this podcast. And I want you to know it means a lot. And you're on this growth journey with me. And so welcome. I am thrilled you're here. And I want to make sure you're on the mailing list so you don't miss out on some of the new programmes I'm creating and you get a free journal. So if you want to start some self reflection, learning more about yourself, this is a tool that I give all my clients and you can get it for free at kristenboice,com/freeresources. And then you will get the free journal and then the weekly newsletter that has blogs I've written helpful information that you might want to know about and I don't spam us so please feel free to join the list. I'd love you to have you a part of our community. You can also follow along on social on Instagram and Facebook at Kristen D Boice. And YouTube and all the places you can find us on Pinterest. I am just so glad you're here for today's conversation with Katie Lior. I met Katie in a mastermind group that we are both in and she casually just shared that she wrote a book on grief and how to work with grief with children. I was thrilled to hear this. So let me tell you a little bit more about Katie she is a licenced counsellor play therapist and drama therapist based in Charlotte, North Carolina. She loves combining creative play with research based coping skills to help kids deal with anxiety and stress. I love this so much about her. Her first book A Parent's Guide to managing childhood grief is available now. From Adams media in Simon and Schuster. When not counselling, you can find Katie playing Dungeons and Dragons with middle schoolers online through her sister business young dragon slayers. And Katie has a wealth of knowledge. And she shares so much depth on how to talk to children about grief, and gave us some practical tools and examples on how to do that. It was such a good conversation. Please, if you found it helpful, tag us on social media share this with somebody that may need to hear this conversation. We all need to know how to have conversations around grief and loss. And this will empower you to do that. So without further ado, here is my meaningful conversation with Katie Leer.

Kristen
Katie, welcome to the close the chapter podcast.

Katie
Thank you so much, Kristen. I'm so psyched to be here. I'm so thrilled to get a chance to talk about the book. And yeah, man, that mastermind has just been a real gift in my life. I look forward to it every week.

Kristen
I do too. So it's one of the benefits of just building new relationships. So I'm so happy you're here. Tell me a little bit about how you became a therapist.

Katie
I feel like there's the shorter answer. And there's the longer answer, I think long but condensed answer is that I, like many of us therapists have sort of lived through many of the things that I help clients work through. Now I was a very anxious kid who had a lot of therapy growing up, I had the benefit of getting access to a lot of therapy, some of which was really wonderful and life changing, and some of which was not as great and not as life changing, but got to experience that as a kid trying to figure out my own anxiety. And I now work primarily with preteens, but kids in general, who are either living with anxiety or have experienced some sort of stressful event recently, whether that's trauma or loss or just a big life change. So I kind of came to counselling, both from that lived experience and then also sideways through the world of theatre and performance, which led me to play and drama therapy eventually.

Kristen
I didn't know that surprise. Yeah, I was thinking about

Katie
transitions and I was like What have been some big transitions in my life and that was for sure one of them my undergrad degrees in theatre. I lived in New York for a long time and then went back to grad school. After getting my BFA I did that. Where did you go to school? I went to NYU Are you for undergrad? So I'm a Tisch grad, and live that life for a few years.

Kristen
We try. Were you wanting to be on Broadway?

Katie
I think when everybody goes in there like that's where I'm going for. And then I think by the time I got out of school, I was No, I think I'm probably going to be doing a lot of like educational theatre, I want to work with kids, I'll probably be doing weird downtown experimental stuff, which is like exactly what I did. But I had really started to discover drama therapy as a concept too late to get into it in school, but work with a theatre company that did it and got the chance to teach a little bit at a therapeutic school. And then a few years out, I was like, Man, the only time I'm having fun anymore is when I'm doing this trauma, therapeutic work. And I don't want to go the rest of my life needing somebody else to open that door for me, because you need a clinician there. And I was really scared to go back to school for a lot of reasons, but eventually was able to make that jump. And I feel like I use that training every day. It's all improv,

Kristen
his doctor basil Vander Kolk book, The Body Keeps the Score one on trauma and how the body reacts. Yeah, what happens to us, he talks about theatre and drama therapy and tell us a little bit about that piece. Because a lot of people don't know what that is.

Katie
I think you hear drama therapy. And I think you assume like we're putting on plays where we're being like manner, like very like showy. And I think people may be this might just be my like projection. Assume that this is something for very extroverted people who already love theatre, which can be you can put on the utricle Productions, and that can be therapeutic. But really, it's using any kind of storytelling, or body based work where you're up and moving and putting things into your body for therapeutic purposes. So that can look like people doing improv together that can look like people writing stories and telling stories from their own lives. That can be people role playing scenarios, right, trying to figure out alternate ways of approaching issues from their lives with the help of other people in a group, it can be for me working with children, oftentimes a lot of pretend play and make believe, or what I often consider drama therapy these days is role playing games, I play a lot of Dungeons and Dragons, and RPGs, with kids online, which I think is modern day where a lot of kids are getting their dramatic play is through online gaming. And so why not lean into that instead of condemning it? Yeah, so what's RPG stands for For those RPG stands for role playing games. So it's any kind of a game where you are taking on a character putting yourself in their shoes, acting as they would kind of making choices for them as you go through a story.

Kristen
I am all about the role playing. I love the roleplay. And I do that all the time with clients because it empowers them to feel more confident and clear, and how to have a conversation. And then I liked the piece about moving your body because the, you know, can just doesn't want to release or has trouble releasing what's held into it. So I like that piece of it as well.

Katie
Were you the student in grad school that whenever everybody was groaning about having to do role plays in class, you were like, Yes, like this time, I was like I was probably

Kristen
because I see the benefit. Yeah, I'm we start role playing, they can start visualising that they can do it like, oh, yeah, and have this conversation. And we get out of story writing, because so many people focus on the story of what they think they're going to say, rather than what are you going to say? What are you going to feel they want to predict what they're going to say, especially for having like a dialogue roleplay

Katie
I love that stuff. And for me, sort of the boundaries between play and drama are pretty blurry because I'm working with kids. And it's all kind of the same, right? Play is drama and drama is when you're working with young people. But that's just been such a unexpected turn in my life that has really been awesome. has really been fun for me.

Kristen
Yes. How does that play into grief with children? I know and tell us about your book.

Katie
Yeah, I'm going to share what you've written. At first glance, it probably feels like a weird pivot. I'm all about fun and games and roleplay and storytelling, and like let's talk about grief. Right? We think of grief as this very heavy, sombre, serious topic. And it is. But it's still true that kids use play and storytelling to make sense of all parts of their life. So we see play as being very light hearted and fun. But it's also the biggest tool that children have to make sense of the world. So yes, it's this escape in the sense of this source of lightness and joy for kids, but it is also what many children are going to need to work through big and difficult to comprehend changes in life like loss. So we may see kids playing out things after a death that as adults are a little bit jarring but for children are their way of starting to process what has happened. So the book that I wrote is a play based activity book that is designed for parents and children to work through together so you don't have to go through start to finish but inside there are 100 exercises maybe like 102, but like at least 100 exercises that are designed for parents and their kids to do together to work through different aspects of the grief process.

Kristen
That's amazing. How did you come up with 102?

Katie
It was not so easy. The first 50 I was like, I got it. Yes, many classic activities that can be adapted, right for grief, lots of stuff, I would say the next 30 I was okay. The last 20 or so was some research, I really had to like, get deep into some books and start thinking about theoretically, what are big concepts that I would love for children to understand? And then how do I make that concrete into an activity? So thanks, got real, philosophical and Buddhist by the end,

Kristen
you're like, and here we are. So tell us, give us a couple of examples that you think are your most powerful exercises that parents can do. They have a grieving child, whether that's loss of a pet, a friendship, a person, is that true? And we're talking Yeah, there was a geared towards the person or

Katie
the book itself is very much the writing is geared toward the death of a person, likely the death of a close family member or a family friend. However, I think that the activities can be generalised pretty easily to death of a pet, and probably to other forms of grief as well, like a move a divorce, I don't think it would be a big leap, to use the exercises for those. But there are a lot of activities that are specifically about death education for children.

Kristen
So give us some examples of a couple of exercises that you wrote about in the book, give us a sneak peek.

Katie
I think one that I have found is really simple, but really helpful is something I call the grief worry brain where we draw a silhouette of a child and profile child's head and profile. And we draw a big space inside for the brain and the parent and the child or the caregiver and the child take turns writing down worries that they think a child might have after somebody has died. And so children have a chance to name things without having to claim them yet, another kid might feel this, we're not saying I do but someone might. And parents have the chance to model worries that either they suspect the child might feel or things that the child has not said yet, maybe even modelling some things that are true for them that they're worrying about. And we take turns doing that until the brain is very, very full. And we can look back and go, Well, I can't believe it. Can you imagine what it must feel like to have all of these worries in your brain. And then the child has a chance to go through those worries, again, that they've either written or drawn a picture to represent. And they can cross out the ones that aren't true for them and circle the ones that are. And it's a simple exercise. But I have had kids asked for this one in session before, just because I think it's a really non threatening way to start putting thoughts out there that are hard to share. And I think there's something that's really safe about that for kids to start by talking about someone else.

Kristen
How did the parents when they start this exercise? Do you invite them to begin the conversation? We're going to do this exercise? Or how do you have the parent introduce the exercise, or the conversation

Katie
often parents to put it in the hypothetical I don't think parents need to be and then at the end, we're going to use all of this as a projective technique. And we're really talking about your the whole time. But I think you can even frame it as a story, right? Like, I want you to imagine that there's a kid who's just had somebody that they love die. Can you imagine what it might feel like? What would we call this kid? What do you want to name this kid? And sometimes kids will choose their own name. And sometimes they'll pick someone else's? I think it can help to have the child draw that picture and profile themselves. What do you want them to look like? Should we add hair? I think framing it as a story. And you can say I think it's okay to be transparent. So I want to talk about grief because we're going through this right now. Let's imagine what it might be like for someone else. I think the more that kids have ownership over making that story, the easier it can be for them to buy in and to share.

Kristen
How important is it for the parent to be processing their own grief while because let's say they're having kind of this dual process like they're going through their own grief. Yeah, child's going through the grief.

Katie
It's huge. I thought about this a lot as I wrote the book, because I had become a new parent right before writing the book. So that's been another big recent transition in my life is I had a six month old son when I signed the contract for this book, and I was like, What have I done? Like, what am I gonna do? And just, I think having that very visceral sense of exhaustion while trying to write this book. I could imagine how overwhelming it would be to be actively grieving and trying to help your child through this experience that No parent wants to have. It's huge. It's incredibly important. I think. We know this about many aspects of mental health that often the best thing a parent can do for their child is to care for themselves first, that whole put the oxygen mask on yourself before giving to your child mentality, but it's like really easier said than done with grief. So something I thought about in the book was how do I make this as easy to navigate as possible? How do I make it as straightforward as possible, I don't expect parents to be sitting down and reading a whole text cover to cover or looking at research for how to help their kids while they're in the midst of this. So I really saw it as a distillation process of, I'm going to read all those books. And then I'm going to tell you the five things that you really need to know now and then I want you to go rest and take care of yourself and not do this heavy lifting right now.

Kristen
Yes, I think it's so beautiful because parents so much want to help their child that's grieving, but they don't know how rate of saying the wrong thing. They're afraid of making it

Katie
worse. That is a theme. I've heard many times speaking to parents, and honestly, probably a fear that I had writing the book What if I say something that offends I parents are often very concerned that they might accidentally re traumatise their child by bringing this stuff up, especially with grieving kids, sometimes you'll have a child who on the outside seems like they're handling life pretty well. And you think, gosh, if I bring this up again, am I just gonna make them feel sad again, when they're doing so well, when really we know about children is that we don't always see the grief on the surface right away. But that doesn't mean it's not there. And that children can mistake that lack of contact, the lack of communication about it as a sign that their parent isn't ready or able to talk about grief. So I will often have kids in my office who are like, Oh, my parent can't handle it. They're just not ready to talk about it. Yes, I think so real. So I think it's helpful to remember that there are no perfect words, there is no perfect thing you can say that's going to make it hurt is right that the pain is part of it, and that you are going to have many, many chances to have this conversation again. Yes, the moment you sit down and share the news that a loved one has died is going to be kind of a I heard somebody describe it as a flashbulb moment once like this is something that children will remember. However, it's a lifelong process. If you wish you could have said something differently, you will have that chance, if you want to try it again, there will be many openings to have this conversation as your child grows. And it's not an end all be all, where you need those magic words, at one moment in time. That is so comforting to so many parents. I think about it all the time. Just for all these conversations like Man, these parenting is a lifelong game. It's a long game. It's not a short term thing. Good news and bad news, we'll have many chances to have these hard conversations again,

Kristen
how do parents acknowledge the child's pain?

Katie
I think that sometimes it can be, especially with those really those deeper feelings like hopelessness and anguish, it can be scary to name them. But I think the more that parents can offer vocabulary for young children to describe those, and the more that parents can model, expressing their own feelings for kids, the more validated children will feel. So we don't want to put words in his mouth. We don't want to be like you're feeling hopeless and depressed right now. Like I can tell. But we can say, I was feeling really angry today when I was thinking about the death because it's just not fair, that we're all stuck dealing with all this stuff. And it might sound strange, but sometimes I'm angry at dad for leaving, we can say things like that. And we can provide children with stories where they can see other characters and other children. Going through these emotions. One of the big concerns I often hear from kids is are my feelings normal? Is it normal to feel this way? And of course, the answer is always yes. But making your own grief process transparent and giving kids literature that normalises their experience can really help.

Kristen
What is the biggest myth for children that are grieving? Do you have one that just everyone thinks this but it's really not true?

Katie
I would say it's like I guess a two part thing that young children don't grieve was a myth that was really persistent even in the mental health community for a long time that it's true that little kids may not fully conceptualise death. But that doesn't mean that they don't grieve the loss of somebody close to them. And I think among parents and caregivers that if a child is functioning well in the world and doing well at school socially and seeming Okay, on the surface, that means they're not grieving or that their grief process is done, which is it's just not true. Which makes it really tricky and hard.

Kristen
I think that's the one I hear like someone else. They have three kids. One kid wants to talk about it wants to grieve it wants to assess it. The other one is more shut down. Yeah. Quiet and the other ones just going on with life like Yeah, nothing happened. They don't know how to approach it with those differences. I'm just throwing some generic Yes, of course, about often. How do you help people meet each child where they are?

Katie
I think part of it is understanding how children's grief processes differ than adults that kids often have an initial period of real shock that is maybe even more amplified than what adults have because this is often their first experience with death and they're having to To understand and wrap their minds around what death is and what it means, while also accommodating the loss of that person, it's a huge thing. So I'll often hear from kids in those early days, I feel numb, I don't feel anything, I feel totally normal. What does that mean for me that I'm not grieving it. And it's just that their mind is protecting them from what would be overwhelming right now, totally normal, not a sign that you're not grieving or that you didn't care, in fact, a sign that you cared a lot. So expecting that shock initially, and knowing that if you tell a kid someone has died, and they seem to go on with their lives, that doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be grief later, they could be starting that process now. And that children often kind of dip their toe in and out of grief. So it's normal for children to be crying, and really in pain, and one moment and then to stand up, pick up and go off and play and seem normal, and social, the next because their capacity for holding those feelings is smaller than us. So it's really normal for children to oscillate back and forth between approaching their feelings and stepping away. So I think that keeping that in mind can be helpful when you're tracking how your child is doing. I also think just continuing to offer invitations and keeping that door open is a way that parents can proactively help. We can't necessarily change the way our child is responding to grief. But we can say no matter what, no matter where you're at, I want you to know that I am thinking about our loved one, I'm remembering them. It's okay for you to do it. And I'm going to continue in a non obtrusive way to be the history keeper for our family and voice when I'm reminded of something so that children know when they do feel ready to share that it's not a taboo topic, because it's been there all along. And open.

Kristen
We've had lots of permission slips like, Yeah, I did talk about a loved one whenever you want to.

Katie
Absolutely. And it doesn't have to be big, profound things. But like if a song comes out on the radio, or you go to a vacation spot, or you just find yourself thinking about it, voicing that inner monologue of your own can help kids know, okay, well, Mom remembers to my parents are thinking about this. Also, it's not just me. And even if you get like an eye roll the moment you've still done your job of keeping that line of communication there.

Kristen
And you're leaning into the discomfort of oh, I don't want to upset them more, or they're doing well, like you said, I don't want to dysregulate them or feel like we're going backwards to scales. It feels like it should be a linear process. Yeah, no, I think so not,

Katie
we had those stages of grief, which in some ways are helpful because it names all these feelings. But then there's feels like this pressure that you've got to get through them to acceptance, and then we're done. If somebody's upset. Again, we've somehow relapsed. And we know that's just not how it works, especially with children who, as they get older, understand more about their loss and understand the permanence and new ways that children are almost inevitably going to re grieve as they get older, and they understand at a deeper level what has happened.

Kristen
Yes, and so one child may process it a year or two years from now, being emotionally available to hold the space and acknowledge in listen and feel

Katie
safety for them to share. You know all of those big milestones in life where other kids are going to have their family members present and you're feeling that loss, but realising oh my gosh, I'm going to get married someday. And that wedding is going to look different without this person there. Or I'm going to maybe have a child someday. And what will that look like when I don't have a grandparent to lean back on, there were moments throughout life where that loss comes up again, in new ways. And it's not that you're going backwards, it's just that you're moving to a deeper level of feeling those feelings.

Kristen
And love how you just put that because we look at different ages, like when you experience a death. So depending on the age and the brain development, that also impacts how much you can process, how aware you might be to some of that two years old that experience to death versus maybe someone that's 16, maybe just totally differently,

Katie
there's going to be a huge difference there. And it's not that the two year old doesn't grieve, grieve, but that they may not be able to completely get through that experience the way that a 25 year old would. And grief is lifelong for all of us. But for children as they grow and mature. And as intellectually they take all these big new leaps, they will eventually grasp the completeness of what death means. It's one of the biggest pieces I work on in therapy with adults is processed a lot of unprocessed grief that really didn't get named, or they weren't allowed to say how they felt they were scared to make it worse, mom or dad couldn't handle it. And so they kind of had to suppress and repress all those emotions that they felt and the confusion and the shock. I think just death in general culturally is really hard for us like I don't know if it's easy for anybody, but I feel like as Americans particularly bad about talking about it, we don't get a lot of access to talking and thinking about death or funeral services are pretty removed and it's just kind of a one time thing and Then it's for most of us, it's done. So mortality is an issue like, Man, I don't know any adults who are like I've fully worked through all my feelings about mortality, and I'm feeling cool about it. That is a lifelong process, even for adults when they're thinking about death. So for kids, it's a huge concept that really has a lasting impact on them. It does

Kristen
and use writing this book is so powerful to help change that conversation, and equip parents because that they don't know what to do. So that first exercise, I was like, That's a beautiful way to start, what would be another exercise for SAT or a parent or a loved one to work with the child?

Katie
Something that was coming to mind today? I think just because I was thinking about those last activities in the book and how I think, early on in my writing, I was very concrete of like, Let's educate about death. And as I reached activity 85 activity 91 I was, I had gotten very philosophical. And I do think there's some benefit in helping children think about meaning as it applies to grief and growth as it applies to grief and all of these kind of big or heavier concepts in small ways. I think we can bring that into children's lives, and it can be very enriching. So I thought a lot about impermanence toward the end of the book, and how life has value because it's impermanent and how our experiences have value because they are impermanent. And so there's a sidewalk chalk exercise where you go outside, you draw your art together, we talk about does this have value, even though it won't last? Can we think of things in our lives that are important or special, because they're not here forever, you make your art knowing that it won't always be there. And then the next time it rains, you watch it wash away, you will kind of watch it erode over time, a little bit more. It was in a little bit more kind of abstract, but I think in a way that children can comprehend. And I thought a lot about, you've probably heard this metaphor of trauma and traumatic growth of Kintsugi, the Japanese pottery, we've heard about this share more. So everyone had benefit of this, I love it. So there's this form of Japanese pottery called Kintsugi, where I think it means joining with gold in Japanese, and you have a beautiful piece of pottery that has broken rather than throwing the pieces away and saying it's done in this art form, they take kind of a liquid gold, and they join the pieces back together so that now you have this reconstructed vase or dish or pottery piece that has this gold veining through it in the places where the cracks work. And this is seen as making the piece more valuable and more beautiful, because it has a history now that it didn't have before. And what a great metaphor for trauma and growth after trauma. And so I'm not asking people to go out and buy fine china liquid gold for their kids. But I do have like two exercises in the book for older and younger where we can do maybe a collage with younger kids where we rip up the paper and we put it back together. And then older kids, we can get like a inexpensive pottery from the thrift store and try this at home so that you have a hands on tangible way to explore that metaphor for growth.

Kristen
That is beautiful. I love your journey as you wrote the book to like you kind of expanded deeper and deeper, it seems

Katie
it was helpful for me, honestly, it was probably really good for me coming from our culture where we don't talk about death to have a few months where I was just this is all I'm thinking about all the time to really explore how what my own reactions were to thinking about grief and loss. What came

Kristen
up for you, as you were kind of getting to that point where you are rumbling through the impermanence of life and grief or loss.

Katie
As a new parent, a lot of these texts, right that I was looking out for inspiration, either parental death or child death. So that was very heavy for me to be thinking about at that time in my life with a baby imagining now that I was kind of in that relationship, and in a very real way, how profound that is. And then also, I think, just a lot of remembering how taboo conversations about death felt growing up to me that it wasn't something we were supposed to talk about that it felt like a bad word to say. I remember kids getting in trouble a school for saying things like you're dead, you're dead. It's like I don't say that word. Almost like a swear word or an insult. I had a friend whose mother died when we were in, in high school. And we were on a field trip at the time. Teachers were like, You need to tell your other friend Mrs. happened. You're close to him like he should hear it from you. And I felt so deeply unequipped to have that conversation and to know what to say, because it had never come up before. We did not have a unit and health class about death. We did not have any kind of exposure in school about how do you talk about death with someone. And I remember calling this friend and saying something really dumb on the phone like, Oh, I hear your mom is not doing well, because it felt like we weren't supposed to say that word. So I can't imagine what it would have been like to go through grief in a more direct way as a kid not even really having a vocabulary that I felt comfortable with to talk Talk about death.

Kristen
Because it's important to say dead. God is saying you have to see people don't know like so when I say, it's hard to say.

Katie
And those abstract words that make us feel more comfortable as adults are often really, really confusing for children who are concrete thinkers. And so if you're passed away, and it's like, has to wait to wear went to heaven, When are they coming back went to sleep. What happens if I go to sleep? Very scary to think about for a lot of kids if we equate death and sleep because sleep is already kind of scary for many children. My sister came home from school one day in elementary school and told us a little girl in her class had passed away. And we were like, what? She passed away and my sister was like, yeah, she passed away on the playground. Today, we were like, no one called us what's going on? This is horrifying. She meant passed out a girl fainted on the playground. But to her, those two terms were the same. If we had told her a girl in her class had passed away, I think she would have assumed that we meant lost consciousness. So I was thinking about that too, in the book of like, getting that really big scanner from her that day, like a girl passed away in your class. And then she was just using the term that she thought she'd heard us use before. Yeah, cuz

Kristen
you don't know. You're like, oh, man, concepts like you have

Katie
a stray? They sound functionally the same? Are you gonna know? Yeah, she

Kristen
doesn't know. That's the thing. We don't know what we don't know. What do you think people should know? Or need to know I don't like the word should need to know about children and grief and having a conversation about it. Because this is what I feel is the most challenging for people who don't know, you walked us through a few examples of how to start the exercises, and parents sharing their own experience like I'm angry today doesn't seem fair, that was very helpful. This isn't conversation but like the past away or dead people don't know you need a bed. Yes, concrete.

Katie
There are actually scripts in the book for common causes of death, I think it's important for children to know that a loved one has died. And to use that word that or died. And I think for all but the very youngest kids, if we're talking older than preschool, children need some explanation as to why. And it doesn't have to be the whole story, especially if the death was something that was complicated overdose or suicide. We don't need to tell everything, but they need to know something. Because I think one good thing to keep in mind is that children will often relate experiences back to themselves. And it's common for kids to feel an enormous amount of guilt when somebody dies, and to even assume that they did something to cause their loved one to die. So it might sound harsh or mean to say grandpa had a heart attack or to say, to talk about cancer with a child. However, it is kinder than the alternative, which is the child believing when I thought that angry thought about my sister to that make her die, kids are still working on magical thinking at young ages, which is the belief that their thoughts and feelings affect the world around them outside. And it's really common for kids to think I didn't care enough about my loved one. And that's why they died. Or if I visited more, they wouldn't have died. Or if I hadn't thought this mean thought about them, they wouldn't have died. So giving age appropriate information upfront is a gift because it's reducing your child's guilt and shame about what has happened. And you can keep your initial explanation brief, like a few sentences, and then let your child's questions guide what happens next in your conversation. If a child can ask a question, they're old enough generally to have some kind of an answer. If they don't ask yet. They may not be ready to hear it, but that you can let them help walk you through that conversation. And it's always okay to say, I don't know the answer to that. Or you know what I want to think about that, I'm going to come back to you can we talk about this again, tomorrow, I need some time to come up with a good answer for that. I need to think about it. So you don't have to have the perfect chords right away.

Kristen
Yes. And that's a permission slip for everyone listening to the perfect

Katie
words, you can come back later if you need a minute to really gather yourself so that you're not totally overwhelmed by the conversation or you want to think about how to word something, as long as you come back later and keep your word on that it's okay to say can we talk about this later tonight? Or can I think about this overnight and get back to you? The other

Kristen
Oh, in the time was going so fast? I know. Last question or real quick. Is it okay for the parent to cry in front of the child because, you know, we're therapists we this is so important. You're gonna see Yeah, because external, sometimes certain grade to share how they feel or cry in front of their child.

Katie
I'm going to say yes with the asterisk of and parents should be looking for sources of support for themselves so that they have places to vent that are not kids in the family because especially if another caregiver has died. It's really easy for kids to step up into that emotional support role, and it happens very naturally. And it's nobody's fault. But that is not an awesome place for kids to be because it keeps them from sharing their own feelings if it feels like they're taking care of their grown ups. So we all need places to go where we can fall. Apart where we can have that heavy cry where we can really be a puddle and have somebody there to contain it. That part doesn't need to be in front of the children. But being teary being emotional crying is a wonderful thing for children to see because it gives them permission to feel the same way. And it shows them that you're grieving too, and that you have not forgotten. So yes, with the caveat of, also make sure that you've got adult support.

Kristen
I love that caveat, because we don't want to turn what we call in the therapeutic world, parental FIDE children, yes, where that kind of becomes pseudo spouse, to being parent. And then you're taken out of the kid role. And you don't get to have your process to your point, you're now caretaking, the parent which shifts you out of, or taking on all this responsibilities, trying to fill in the shoes that you can't. So it can take you out of your process. I'm so glad you put the caveat, the disclaimer there, I am so grateful for you. And this work you're doing everybody needs this book, whether you're a teacher, you're a parent, you're a therapist, you're working with any kind of grief at all, which we all cannot get out of this category. I mean, we can't, death is inevitable. And it's important we talk about it, we process it, we name it, we acknowledge it, we offer empathy. So everyone needs this book to feel more equipped. And even if you're a friend, I mean, these are exercises you could even do with a friend. I mean, I just see this is endless, the potential for this book, I

Katie
appreciate that. And yeah, the title is maybe slightly misleading because it is titled parents guide. But it's really intended to be for any caring adult in a child's life. And many of the activities are designed to be done remotely. A lot of them are online activities. So if you have a zoom call or FaceTime call with a child in your life, you can do these things, even if you're not in the same room together. So I appreciate you. I appreciate you being so kind about the book. I

Kristen
am thrilled as far as like, I have to have you on the podcast to talk about this. This is so necessary. Where can people find you? If they're like, I want to know more? I want to get the book where can they find the book? Where can they find you?

Katie
You can find me at Katy lear.com That's ka ti e l e ar.com. All of my book is here, my online courses there. You can learn about the DND groups there my counselling practices there. That's kind of the hub. I do have a little resource bundle available on my website. If you go to Katie lynda.com forward slash book, if you send proof of purchase, I've got five extra activities that I did not have a record in the book. So I'm happy to send those along as an extra. You can also find the book at any major booksellers. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble indiebound, any of those, or you can buy directly through Simon and schuster.com, which is the publisher. So those are all good places to buy. And then if you want to come play d&d with us, we work with middle schoolers at young Dragon slayers.com.

Kristen
I love everything you're doing well, but all of that in the show notes. So quick access, just click on the link, it'll take you right to the resources. Thank you Katie for your hair, your soul and sharing all your knowledge with us today. I'm truly grateful for our time together.

Katie
Thank you, I appreciate it.

Kristen
Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoy this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week and share with a friend or a family member. And for more information about how to get connected visit Kristin k r i s t e n d Boice B O i c e.com Thanks and have a great day.