Kristen

Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing counseling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode so be sure to subscribe Welcome to the close the chapter podcast I am so happy you're joining me here today. I know time is valuable. And the fact that you're here listening to this conversation says a lot. So I am so grateful that you're willing to take the time and invest in really working on you and growing and healing and I'm excited to introduce you to my guest today. He's written a number of books, and Dr. Weiss is a psychotherapist and award winning author teacher, his decade long work on understanding the internal lives of men cumulated with his recent published best seller, hidden in plain sight, how men's fears of women shaped their intimate relationships, cannot wait to get into this conversation. He is a regular contributor to The Psychology Today website and offers workshops nationally about psychotherapy with men and helping men and women understand each other. He practices psychotherapy online from his home on an island in Midcoast. Maine. Are you from Maine? Curious.

Dr. Weiss
I moved here about two years ago.

Kristen
Okay. Well, welcome to the close the chapter podcast.

Dr. Weiss
Thank you. It's good to be here. And good to meet you. I look forward to talking with you.

Kristen
Where were you before you moved to Maine?

Dr. Weiss
I was in Atlanta, Georgia. Wow. Yeah, quite a dramatic shift started coming here for vacations. And then sort of had a moment where we were at the end of verification, getting ready to go home and looking each other going, why are we going home?

Kristen
Well, how about that? So you and your wife were like, Okay, we're gonna move to Maine.

Dr. Weiss
Yeah, we live on a small island with about 1200 year round residents. And it's beautiful. It's 72 degrees right now.

Kristen
Oh, perfect. Well, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today and have this conversation. It's one that you don't hear a lot about. I mean, marriage and family therapists, I have a lot of clients I work with that are couples and men and to hear about men having fears about women. Let's dive in. What is

Dr. Weiss
the reason you don't hear about it? Yeah, tell me? Well, it what's interesting, and I'll probably give a longer answer than maybe you're looking for is that what's fascinating to me is that when the field started, let's say 140 years ago, Freud and his contemporaries knew all about men's spheres of women, and we're writing about it, and then the topic disappears for literally over 100 years. And I don't understand how people have not been talking about it, because there's a therapist who works a lot with men. To me, it screams out at me, every time I sit down with a man, it's so clear to me that he's afraid of his partner. And I got to it in a very simple way. So I'm listening to a lot of men. And the stories are overlap a lot. And mostly the stories are about the list of things that they are upset with their partner about and pretty hopeless about it ever changing. And so therapists ask obvious questions sometimes. So I would ask them, Have you talked with her about this, and I got the same reaction every time the first reaction you get is like bowing up, like basically telling me I've just asked the stupidest question in the history of the world. And like, if I could talk to her about it, I wouldn't be paying you to talk to you about it. And then literally within a minute, Kristin, really 100% of time was straight guys. So you see the realisation sort of come over their face, and they're like, actually, that would explain a lot. Let's talk more about that. And so for men, it's not far out of their awareness. And for women, it's a complete mystery women just look at me like I've lost my mind. They understand that women are afraid of men, but the idea of the more powerful more privileged member the relationship also being scared seems like a total insanity to them. But again, once you start explaining it, and their partner starts talking to them, again their responses Oh, that really explains a lot.

Kristen
Where do you think this fear develops? Let's dive into the deep end.

Dr. Weiss
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it develops right from the beginning. There's a very famous social psych experiment called the still face STI ll you know, the experiment. And so for your listeners, they had mothers and their little babies interacting on a split screen and you can see that even though there are no words that there's a conversation is the mom was makes a funny face and the baby smiles and so that anytime the mom gets a reaction from the baby that reinforces what she's doing anytime the baby gets it, and so they're having a calmer decision without words, then the mom is instructed to turn away and turn back with a still face, not an angry or disapproving or critical, just not responsive, and all of the babies became so upset, some of them lost bowel and bladder control. Some of them lost control their bodies, it was incredibly dysregulated to infants, for their mothers to not be we are completely relational creatures. And we're dependent. So like I'm talking and you're nodding. That's how relationships go. If you stopped nodding, I would worry that what I was saying wasn't connecting with you. So we're doing that 1000 times a moment, just always back and forth, back and forth. Fast forward to adulthood. For men, if you're heterosexual, you're picking a partner who is the same gender as your mother. And so it recreates. And so the childhood if mama ain't happy, nobody's happy becomes the adulthood happy wife happy life. And so men become as preoccupied on their partner's reaction, as infants are on their mother's reactions. And if you don't believe me, ask or listen to the culture to how preoccupied with men that men are with whether or not their partners are upset with them.

Kristen
Oh, it's every single person that comes into the office. I mean, really,

Dr. Weiss
I had a guy tell me once that he was so tuned into whether or not his wife was upset with him that he could tell when he walked in the door. Before he saw her. He could feel it. He believed this, that he could feel it in the air if she was upset with

Kristen
him. And then what if the wife is upset, then what?

Dr. Weiss
Well, men are socialised to believe that part of their job is to take care of and protect women. And so if women are unhappy, even if it's not with them, for a man, that means I'm failing at my job, which means I'm failing as a man.

Kristen
Okay? How much of this impacts people having affairs? Because I my theory is it's an attachment wound. It's deep.

Dr. Weiss
I think it's a really good point it actually nobody's asked me about that. And I love your bring it up. Because I think what happens is definitely agree with you that it's about attachment. And the way I would say it is that the marriage becomes only intermittently reassuring for the man, sometimes he's pretty sure that he's okay with her. And a lot of times, he's really not sure if he's okay with her. Whereas the affair partner is so new and expressive and overboard, that I'm always sure I'm okay with her. And so it's a respite from the lifelong fear of women. Because also, if she leaves them, if there's not as much skin in the game, there's not as much risk as the other factors. So absolutely.

Kristen
I think this is a deep conversation, because we look at affairs and people that have multiple affairs. And what do you say about that in like, okay, so I go to my new affair partner, and that's exciting. And I'm wanted, I'm pursued, I've got these unmet needs now being quote unquote, met temporarily. So talk to me about this. I think there's more here.

Dr. Weiss
Well, most affairs, I mean, what's interesting is that affairs, the best predictor of affairs is opportunity. So it's not a character flaw, as we might like to believe it's not like weak people or bad people or morally bankrupt people have affairs. Sadly, it's when people are in the opportunity to have a fair so when I work with people who travel for a living, I kind of assumed that they either have or might have an affair, because it's that common in that group of people. And so it's unaddressed issues in the marriage. It's all stuff that they just like I said in the beginning about guys, when I say them, have you talked to your wife, they're like, Oh, my God, no. Because usually what they say is no, that will just make it worse.

Kristen
Yes, how they're gonna get mad, or they're gonna, right?

Dr. Weiss
So if they can't talk to her, then what am I gonna do? I have to act it out in some other way. And so I think when couples can talk about these issues, it's such a game changer in relationships, when women learn that what's behind so they see their partner's behaviour of withdraw. That's the primary defensive reaction for men. Why are they withdrawing because they're scared, but that's not what women understand. They think you're withdrawing because you're being a jerk. It's power struggle. You're trying to get one over on me you're trying to dominate you're trying to control but really what men are trying to control is their own fears. They're trying to control women in order to control what they feel

Kristen
because they want to feel wanted love pursued Chase, have men tell me they want to be chased.

Dr. Weiss
They certainly want to feel again back to the still face experiment that just wants you to smile at you not to chase me but just let me know I'm not in trouble. Just let me know I'm okay. Just let me know I'm not a bad boy.

Kristen
It sounds so inner child. I mean, it sounds this setup this parent child dynamic, but what you say to Just smile at me and No, I'm okay. That feels very small. I mean, I know we're talking about still child a Harvard experiment. And then people go, Well, I don't want to have sex with him. He's a baby.

Dr. Weiss
Exactly. And it does become an issue in sexual relationships because, and on the other, so women are unattractive to men who are being unavailable and childlike. And then men become unattractive their partners because they see them as their mother. They see them as a critical mother. And hopefully that's not attractive to them.

Kristen
Yeah. I mean, really, to me, yes, men can travel in that setting up opportunity. Do you feel like it's deeper than that, though? I mean, I really feel like it goes way back.

Dr. Weiss
Oh, of course it is. It's just there sort of waiting to happen. And the opportunity creates the opening for it. Absolutely. But you know, couples who are not going to be unfaithful to each other. I mean, you don't know that. But you know that you have friends or people you know, and you just know, they're happy with each other, and they could have all the opportunity in the world. And that's not going to happen. And then you know, couples who you are not surprised when you hear it happens. What's the difference? The difference is their strength of connection with each other. The difference is when things are bothering them, if they can go to each other and talk about them. One of the lovely things that I did not think of so I will not take credit for it, that people are doing with this book, which I love. Many couples have said to me that they're reading the book together, in that they read, they wait till they've each read the first chapter, then they talked about it, and they wait to live each read the second chapter. And they make a regular time to talk about the book. And it helps men to open up. They don't have to do it from scratch and talk about who they are and what they're feeling. Because it's in the book. And they can basically just say, Yes, that's me. That's Yes. So the book helps them to more articulate and open more, and it helps the women to understand what is such an enigma. It's fascinating to me, if you go to Amazon, and you look in the book section, how many books there are written for women with their a generally dealing with how to understand that, oh, those books, man or women, but women? What since this whole thing? That's where you got to find your answer, because men aren't talking to women about what's going on inside. So women have to make up the best answers they can, which I'm sorry, it's they're generally not right.

Kristen
And your thesis is the fear that men have about women in that goes back to the connection attachment, which is what we're talking about in this still, yes, research there. That's at the crux of the fracture, and then they're carrying that with them.

Dr. Weiss
Yes. And let me tell you just concretely so your readers can identify what some of the particular fears are. So men are afraid of being dominated and controlled by women. That one we know because you see that in the culture everywhere. So I don't know what your rules about language on the show are. But one of the first words phrase in the book is pussy whipped. Because what does that mean? Why is it that the worst thing one man can say to another man is that he's controlled by a woman really is controlled by his need for a woman. And so for men, there's a fear of needing women, a fear of being dominated and controlled by women. There's also a general fear about women's emotions. When the more emotional get the more frightened men get why? Because men are socialised to not be connected to their own emotions. But feelings are as contagious as a yawn. So the more upset you get what happens to me, I start to feel more so in arguments between men and women, when men are always trying to get women to stop being so emotional, that's not to control it, it is to control you. But what I'm really trying to control is how upset I'm getting, if you would calm down, I'd be less upset. And so the only way I don't know how to smooth soothe myself, so I try to control your expression of emotion. And then the last fear for men, that is the sort of fundamental underlies them all, which we've kind of made reference to is the fear of being abandoned. And again, that doesn't seem obviously true. But all you have to do is look at the statistics when men and women divorce or end a long term relationship. It's men who read partner much faster than women. So although men protest that they don't need women, that's not actually the case. Actually, men need women if stereotypically again, if a woman goes away for a week, the man is lost isn't what daddy sent me friends. He doesn't take care of himself. He's lonely man goes away for a week woman's relieve the woman is she calls her girlfriends. She's got things she wants to do. She's got lots going on in her life besides him. She's not nearly as dependent on him as emotionally, obviously, financially and physically in other ways. But emotionally, it's men who are much more dependent on women and it's completely unacknowledged. They're completely unaware of it.

Kristen
Yeah, and we're Complete the talking about heterosexual relationships does this transcend into other non normative relationships? It does

Dr. Weiss
in different ways. Because if you're a same sex couple have your same sex male couple, for example, neither one of you is partnered with someone who's the same gender as your mother. And so it doesn't activate those particular issues. But same sex couples deal with the same kinds of struggles around dependency and independence as heterosexual couples do. So example in the book jacket, one of the endorsements is from a gay analyst who said, my whole life, I felt like masculinity was like the bakery. And I was on the outside with my nose pressed up against the window, and I couldn't get in, I couldn't see what it was, and I couldn't taste the sweet food. And he said, I read your book, and I realised that straight guys were out there with me, they couldn't get in either. They weren't any more comfortable with knowing what masculinity was than I was.

Kristen
Okay, let's take these three fears men have let's take the control, and they're afraid of being controlled and dominated. What's the root of that? How did we get to the point where that might be a man's fear.

Dr. Weiss
It's the same root as we've been talking about. But in particular, because men are socialised to believe that they're expected to be in shorts the same. It's the same fears of inadequacy around masculinity. In our culture, women are born to expect to be women. And we don't expect them to do you're just born that when you are a woman. But for men, it's very different. There's great story about there are many cultures that have initiation rites for young boys. And typically the boys live in the woman's hut when they're little. And then the men come in the middle of the night, and they symbolically kidnap the boy, and they take him out in the woods, and they beat him, because that's manhood is torture and pain. And then they bring him into the village. In this particular case, what's interesting is they bring the boy back to the village, and now he's gonna get his stuff from the women's side, take it into the mindset, because now he's a man. But in this culture, the boy does something interesting on his way to the women's that his mother comes out to the edge of the village to meet him. And he is instructed to slap her and then go get his stuff. So my question is, why the slack? What is the purpose? Why not just go get your stuff? Say hi, mom, go get your stuff and go to the men's side.

Kristen
Why the slap? Are you asking me? Yeah, domination control? Yes, the

Dr. Weiss
slap is to show the other men, because masculinity is defined as not feminine. So there is no masculine. There are no qualities that define masculinity. It's defined in opposition. So being a man means not ever looking feminine. So that means you have to earn being a man. And you always have to defend it, because God forbid, you say the wrong thing, or act the wrong way, or wear the wrong clothes, you're always subject to being judged by other people as not masculine. And so you bring that into your relationship. And you're afraid because you feel like your masculinity is always threatened.

Kristen
What if you had a controlling, domineering parent,

Dr. Weiss
you're getting into it. And it's more complicated. We're adding layers, we're adding layers. And I know we don't have that much time. But that's fine. I'm happy to get into it. So I've been asking women a very interesting question lately. And I wish we had a live audience now because I'd love to see the listeners response. But the question and I would ask each of the women listening to think for themselves question I've been asking women is, what did your mother teach you about men, both through her words, and through her actions in terms of how she treated your father. And sadly, I will tell you that the overwhelming majority of women have said to me, what my mother taught me was, don't count on a man. Don't expect to feel close to a man. And anything that needs doing, just assume you're going to do it yourself. So basically, their mothers taught them, you're not going to be that close to him, and you can't count on him and you can't rely on so then you come to the other side. And you hear men talking all the time, about feeling criticised and disrespected by their partners. And then you see the truth of it, you see that they're not making that up that the problem in many heterosexual couples are the socialising we got. And so women do bring this critical attitude towards the relationship and men do sense it and are scared,

Kristen
interesting layers. Okay, let's go to number two, the second fear, which was emotions, because my mom is a therapist. So I grew up with a fear of psychoanalyse. And one of the things she really brought home as you need an emotionally unavailable man, right? Well, good luck, right? Because you guys weren't I mean, men in general were socialised to be connected to their emotions to your point.

Dr. Weiss
There are two ways relationships go between men or women. So going back developmentally, boys and girls grew up playing with each other, playing in mixed groups and the Boys have as close relationships with their male friends as the girls do with their female friends. They're just as important to them. At a certain age, the boys start playing with the boys and the girls start playing with the girls. They slip, the girls go off. And in their friendships, they practice relationships. What do I mean? What are the games girls play, they play house Doctor school, they play imagination games in which they're enacting relationships, and they're learning about and they're very interested in their relationships with each other, and they dissect them, and they talk about them, all of which they are getting PhDs in relationship, what are the guys doing? Not that the guys are practising competition and aggression, they are practising for their role in dominating the world. So they play sports, and competition and aggression, not getting training in relationship, then comes puberty, guys are interested in girls, again, girls are interested in guys or each other, whichever your preference. But for heterosexual people, they get interested in each other. And you've been to school for 10 years studying relationships, and I don't know what you're talking about. And that's where relationships, that's the crossroads, because smart man understands that remember, as children, guys wanted closeness as much as girls did. So they still do. Underneath all the socialising and posturing. Men want to be close with somebody they want to be loved, just like women do. So smart men at that crossroads. See, she's got something to teach me. And if I'm smart enough to listen, and let her teach me, I could have the closeness I want in my life. And that relationship goes well, the other four doesn't go so well that for the men are more scared. And they say, she's not the boss of me, she can't tell me what to do. I'm my own person. And that doesn't go very well. So it requires some humbleness on the part of men. The other thing that can be helpful, this part and I talked about it in the book is for mental learn that with each other, for men to form relationships with each other in which they continue to work on relationships the same way women were. And there's actually a chapter in the book that has sort of guidelines for men, if they want to set up a support group with other men. Here's some ways to do it. There's a Facebook page for people who want to do that and talk to each other, because they'd like the book to impact beyond just those people who read the book.

Kristen
I love that. I think that's the key because other men are like the other men out there doing the same work. Yes, there are.

Dr. Weiss
And actually one of the things I'm trying to do now is actually travel to locations where men want to start doing this work. And anyone who wants to get a group of men together, I will come out and meet with that group, and sort of get them started. And then hopefully, small groups from there will continue meeting.

Kristen
I love that I think that's much needed. I'm excited. Let's talk about the third fear, the abandonment fear, because men and women both have that. And my theory is it's based on unmet needs. And whatever life experience, you've had trauma in your background, what is yours in terms of why men have abandonment

Dr. Weiss
in men and women both have it but women know they haven't, and men don't. So the impact of women's issues about abandonment is out there in front obvious and easy to see. For men, since they're unaware of that fear, their behaviour is puzzling and difficult to understand. Because you don't understand the fear that's operating in the background. Because men are socialised to not be afraid of anything much less, and to not need anything much less a woman. Because again, pussy whipped the worst thing you can say about a man is that he needs a woman.

Kristen
Isn't that interesting? Like that's the worst thing you can say

Dr. Weiss
it is and what a dilemma for men, because that's what you have to guard against anybody thinking about you, but it's true. So it's like, let's imagine that you're secretly left handed. And as far as you can see, everybody in the world is right handed. But you can't do anything with your right hand. So you have to hide, you have to secretly use your left hand. And also nine men admit to yourself that you need your left hand,

Kristen
exactly the hiding. I think it like you said men don't even know they're doing it. And some women too, and this is universal hiding is what will be the division that takes place in the relationship.

Dr. Weiss
And that's why the book is called hidden in plain sight. And that is also on the positive side. That's what's transformative in couples, once couples understand. It's sort of like showing them the subtext, what's really going on. And once they understand that, really, things profoundly change. I did a relationship it really interesting format. It was a two day workshop was four day workshop, two days four months apart. So we met for two days. And then we didn't meet again for four months, same group of men and women. And what was most interesting was, it was the women who had It made the biggest changes in their relationships, not the men. And the women came back talking about how much more empathic and caring and sensitive towards their partners felt. Understanding how scared they were, how are

Kristen
they supposed to approach it with men? If we understand okay, the theory is men are afraid of women in being criticised, controlled. A big saying

Dr. Weiss
to women, buy the book for your husband and ask him to read it with you.

Kristen
What would be your number one tip, like if you're really have a strategy, what is women can be empowered, or anybody can be empowered to have a conversation about fear.

Dr. Weiss
The strategy is taught to him the way you would talk to somebody, if you have children, you understand or if you have any interaction with children, if you're talking to somebody who's frightened, you don't get angry and berate them, which is often what happens. And so if you're talking to somebody who's right, and you talk to them, like you talk to somebody who's frightened, even though they don't look at they look big, tough and blustering. Yes. You're talking to with the understanding, and you know, they're scared, because anytime they get angry or defensive, you've gone too fast.

Kristen
Or how do you slow it down? Then if they get angry? Because that's our natural response?

Dr. Weiss
You slow it down, you listen more and talk less when okay, sorry, went a little faster. You tell me? What's it like for you? So when I found that woman speaking, when I asked you for the fifth time to take out the garbage? And you haven't done it? What are you thinking? What's going on? Because to me, it just seems like you're being a jerk. But why don't you tech, tell me about it? Why don't you? And with that kind of invitation, he may say I don't mind taking out the garbage. And just mind being told what to do. Makes me feel like a little boy. And then what? Well, now we have a conversation. Now we have a real conversation. That's the start of something that could go somewhere. And so then I would hope that that couple would figure out a way, probably when I would say to the man is willing, if you would take responsibility for the garbage she would never ask you. And so you hate it when she asks you, but it's completely in your power to stop that from ever happening again. So for example, if you took out the garbage every day, then this would net Well, the garbage doesn't need I understand. I'm just wanting you to see that you could stop this, you could leave my office right now. And this could never ever happen again. And so then maybe you and I would talk about how come you don't you hate it so much. But you don't do what you need to do to stop it from ever happening.

Kristen
Do you feel like a lot of men and women I don't want to put just men are stuck in what we call Arrested Development. So they've had, they're stuck emotionally at age four, or five to three. I mean, they're stuck, just like women can be. I mean, this isn't just anybody

Dr. Weiss
in their intimate relationships, because all of us regress in our intimate relationships to all of our unfinished stuff from childhood. So one of the interesting research findings is that in conflict in heterosexual relationships, men get more physiologically aroused than women, and have a harder time bringing their arousal down, take some longer they get more upset, which you wouldn't think most people would say stereotypically women get more upset, they just look more upset. When you woke them up. Physiologically, men are more threatened in conflict with their partners than women. But women don't see that they don't know that's happening. And they get angry, because they can't see the reaction in him. And they assume that he's impenetrable. And they're not reaching him. They have no idea how much they're impacted.

Kristen
That's almost like the still baby, right there is almost the same concept.

Dr. Weiss
He's having that same reaction that just men have gotten very good at hiding

Kristen
well, and then the women are having a reaction because they want from their partner just like this little baby. So it's

Dr. Weiss
what happens in couples is that we're actually working at cross purposes, because women are working to make a connection and pursue and men are experiencing that as criticism. And so the more they pursue, the more men withdrawn, and the more they withdraw, the more women pursue. And that's why arguments just go around around in circles and never go anywhere, does actually have a case study coming up. In an upcoming issue of the psychotherapy networker with exactly that dynamic sort of lays out that typical argument between men and women, and then explains how men's fears are the central dynamic in that.

Kristen
And so what's your theory be I'm gonna go back to the betrayal because I see a lot. I mean, the numbers on betrayal right now are sky high, you probably already know this. I'm coming into the office and make and there's just an I can sniff it out within the super fast and the man. Now it can be women too. It's not just it's both on both sides. So I'm not picking it but since I'm talking about men, if I see the man and I know he knows, I know. Because I know he knows I know. And he'll say that after if they come and tell me they'll say I knew you knew, but they're dead set on hiding. They're dead set on What do you say to that they will not speak the truth?

Dr. Weiss
Well, it's not that's you're giving a one sided description. And let me make that now a two sided inscription. So if you ask me right now to tell you about the worst thing that ever happened in my childhood, I probably would say, well, we don't really know each other that well yet. So my willingness to talk about sensitive things is entirely dependent on the trust and history between us. So when you have men who are lying and defending themselves at all costs, what's the other side of the equation? How has that relationship become one in which they're both afraid to be tender and vulnerable with each other, and you can't expect the man to just come out and start talking about it, you have to work on the connection between the couple first,

Kristen
totally agree, let's take some of these examples where you're in therapy for a year, your life's work and super hard, holding the space mirroring back acknowledging feelings. I mean, they're doing they want to make it work or the partner who it doesn't matter who the partner is working hard, because they want to make it work. And yet, you're doing everything and the man is just or the person or the other partner is just not because they're still in the affair, right? Well, if

Dr. Weiss
they're still in the affair, probably not much it's going to happen in a couples therapy. Yes. But the intervention that most therapists don't think of that I have found incredibly effective is to refer the man to a men's therapy group.

Kristen
Okay. Therapy Group, not at that question.

Dr. Weiss
So I started running men's groups about 10, or 12 years ago, and I distinctly remember the night that I was getting ready to go into the first group. And I thought, awesome, this is the worst idea you have ever had, as a therapist, this is going to be a nightmare. They're going to talk politics, they're going to talk sports, nobody will open up well, within two or three meetings in that group, people were embracing at the end of the group, talking about their feelings for one another. And what I have learned much to my surprise, is that actually, men are dying to open up and talk with each other, they're just afraid to do it with women in the room. Again, I run a number of men's groups now and I refer men to them under exactly those circumstances, when I have a man who doesn't know how to participate in a couples therapy because he's too afraid to open up and talk with his partner, I will refer him to a men's group where he will learn in a less threatening situation about how to do that, and then come back to the couples work with those skills.

Kristen
Do you just had a shift in my thinking about this? Because you go, Okay, I'm gonna refer the male to another therapist. Oh, she happens to be female. Not you're in the same threat response?

Dr. Weiss
Yes. It doesn't matter if she's a female. What matters is a big push in psychology and psychotherapy in general, about cultural competence that you probably have to take see using cultural competence every year or two to renew your licence, right? Yep. So I actually had somebody who they were interested in me publishing something with them. And then they read it. And they said, Oh, no, this isn't enough about diversity and inclusion. And I said, actually, in our field, men are a minority, both as practitioners and patients. And so writing about men is about diversity and inclusion in psychotherapy. And so if we want to do better, it's not that men have to talk to only two men. It's that all therapists have to learn how to talk to men. Yeah, we don't get the training to do that.

Kristen
That's an interesting perspective. To add to that. There's not a lot of men's groups. I mean, there just isn't led by men. I mean, there just isn't at least in my area. No,

Dr. Weiss
I agree. I think that's true. But yeah.

Kristen
Okay, but now you've got me intrigued with one more question. Yeah, sure. Then how do you talk to men? If we're doing a training? I know this could be a whole nother episode. But just I mean, you said compassionately, just like you would talk to a little

Unknown Speaker
kid. It's easy. It's really easy. Because

Kristen
I've talked to men just like I would anybody else. Is that wrong?

Dr. Weiss
Well, I want to tell you, you're wrong. But if you applied for a job working in a Latino community, what would you do to prepare for that job?

Kristen
Well, you'd understand the culture you Right, right? Yeah.

Dr. Weiss
Same with men. It's no different. So the more you understand the internal lives of men, and I would say that reading this book is a pretty good start, the more you understand what makes men click, so in my office, I would say 90% of the time I say something to a man about that sort of summarises where I think they're coming from, they say, exactly, that's it. Because I know the script, I understand. They just have to say one part. And I know where that goes. I know what that's connected to. And so the more you learn about the psychology of men, the easier it is to work with men because you really can help them then because you understand where they're coming from.

Kristen
Yeah. Here's the other piece. You could get an argument that people would say, Well, men have a lot of white men have a lot of privilege. How are they the minority? I know what therapy they Er, but Abby,

Dr. Weiss
of course, men have a lot of privilege. And the tricky part is Martin Luther King said something astounding. Martin Luther King said segregation scars, the soul of the perpetrator as much as the victim. So if you think systemically abuse, privilege, whatever, can't be good for the perpetrator, either. And if we're going to end patriarchal privilege, we've got to work with men. We can't just say, Oh, they're privileged, they don't get the attention. They don't get any sympathy. We have to work with them as well as women, if we really want to change the way 100% Agree. No, one's we're not reaching, we're not reaching out to them, while

Kristen
we look at shootings, and going down a rabbit hole here. But we look at shootings, school shootings, we had one in our area, which is shocking. This was in 2018. And it's men, it's white men, young men.

Dr. Weiss
And when you read what they write, they're terrified of women. They write they're largely members of groups, you know, the in cells, the groups are, and you're the first layer is how angry the art women, but you don't have to go very far under that. See how terrified they are.

Kristen
And we have another issue of Mother Child dynamics, and relationships. That's another I know, we've talked about that

Dr. Weiss
Mother Child dynamics, but the problem is its mothers. Where's the father? A missing piece? Yes. We can't expect women to understand the internal world of boys. That's ideally why there's a man there, because he lived it and he knows it. And then that's where his contribution comes in, is there are parts of so I raised a son and a daughter, son was easy. I understood everything. I didn't understand everything about him. But I understood what it was like to be a boy, the daughter had always asked my wife, what's this? What's that? What's she thinking? Because I hadn't lived any of it. And I needed instruction, I need to learn.

Kristen
Yeah, and you were open to doing so you had the awareness?

Dr. Weiss
Exactly. No shame. And if you're open to do well, I

Kristen
loved our conversation. I know the time was so fast, I could have kept Yes, really fast. How can people find you and buy your book, because I'm gonna recommend, go get out

Dr. Weiss
appreciate that easiest way to find me as Adrienne Weiss, pH d.com, a VRUMWE, ISS ph d.com. And you will find their links to all of my books, and you will find a place to sign up for the mailing list if you want. And I will send you a copy. I publish something every week or two often about this topic. And so if you want to be on that mailing list, and I'll send you a free ebook, if you sign up about relationships, and when you sign up for the mailing list,

Kristen
everybody will want to get that