Kristen
Welcome to the Close the Chapter Podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing Counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories, we will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open the door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe Welcome to this week's close the chapter podcast. Thank you so much for being with me this week, we are going to be talking about getting out of your head and stopping the rumination and the looping thoughts. How many times have you had this happen we all have. And we're gonna be talking about coping strategies and how to shift out of that and attend to that. So be sure to settle in. Or if you're doing something else running, exercise, cleaning, whatever you're doing anything around the house, feel free to put this on and tune in and listen, and be sure to grab the free journal. It's absolutely free. And this is what I do with clients. Pretty much every single client that comes in, we're using these principles and these exercises and this format to begin the healing journey and it's free. So if you go to kristendbooice.com it will be emailed to your inbox and then you'll be alerted of any other helpful information free sent to you. I do blogs and videos and things along those lines. So you will be on the list and you'll be the first to know. So be sure right now go to your phone, go to your computer, go to Kristen D boice.com. forward slash free resources and jump on the list. I want to make sure I mentioned that. And I want to just acknowledge and thank you for sharing the podcast, the more you share it, the more people hear about it, the more lives can be transformed and touched. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. It's a passion of mine to change the conversation around mental health and being real with each other. So we do that by starting with being real yourself. And so thank you so very much for doing that. So let me introduce you to this week's guest, Brian, such as a TA. I want to make sure to say that correctly, Brian should chata is the author and owner of get out of your head and book and brand series that seeks to help folks overcome anxiety and depression. By trade. Brian is a software developer he combines his experience in the tech world with previous mental health battles to draw parallels between computer systems and the human mind and give readers practical strategies for evading their own psychological demons. Brian currently has two books on the market, get out of your head, a toolkit for living with and overcoming anxiety and get out of your head Volume Two, navigating the abyss of depression. His mission is to help as many sufferers as possible through not only those books, but also his blog and podcast appearances. And we really had a conversation about what helped him what are his strategies? How did he even develop this because he's not a therapist. This is his own life journey that he turned into a mission to helping others. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Brian. And I hope it's helpful and creates a feeling of being less alone in this. Enjoy. Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am so glad you're joining me today for this special conversation with Brian Sucheta. Did I say it correctly?

Brian
That is right.

Kristen
I'm so excited to have you here, Brian to talk about all things about getting out of your head. Because how many of us live in our heads? I'm like gonna raise my hand at times, right? I'm a therapist and still can get my head. It's one of those things. That's the name of your book. Am I getting that? Yes,

Brian
yes, I got a couple with that title. So you're definitely on point there. Yay.

Kristen
Okay, so we're gonna kind of break down I want to hear about your story. What led you on this journey? Like, let's just start there. What led you on this kind of, let's just call it mental health journey. So many of us are on?

Brian
Definitely. Yeah. So it's a good point that you say that a lot of us are on this journey. Right? I guess stepping back for a quick second. I run this brand called Get out of your head. It's a website, book series, blog, clothing brand, all sorts of things related around mental health, right? Me trying to make sense of my journey, share it with other folks. I will say like I'm not a licenced practitioner or a therapist or doctor or anything like that. I'm just somebody who's been through Some of the same things that people who are listening to this podcast may have been through. And I want to, you know, take my experiences, take my learnings, take some of the difficult parts and share them with people, right? I think, as you said, that a lot of folks are on this journey, right? I think it's important to expand the conversation and make people feel as though or at least help them feel as though they're not alone, right? Because so many of us are on this journey. And if you look at the statistic of quite a few of us that are on it, right, it's like just pulling a stat out of thin air, it's like, you know, about 20% of folks will struggle with depression at some point in their lives. And yet, at the same time, like, depression is stigmatised. Right. And we're like, oh, you know, it's not, quote unquote, okay to feel that way. Or that's kind of the societal notion that we get. And yet at the same time, it's like, it's not okay, but like, one out of five people will deal with it at some point in their lives in between you and I. And, obviously, I'm on a little bit of a tangent, but it's like, between you and I like one in five, I think the numbers are probably higher, because not everybody is going to the doctor and reporting what they're experiencing. So taking it back to like, you know, my story, my journey, a lot of this started in late high school, and then early college dealing with anxiety. So I think everybody experiences fear, and anxiety, trepidation, things like that in different ways. And so, you know, I'm not necessarily trying to say, like, Hey, this is everybody's experience, this was just my experience, but how it sort of came to be was like, early on, right, as a 18 year old dude, it's like, all you really care about or all I really cared about my friends really cared about was like, you know, getting good grades, women going to the gym, looking, you know, good physically fit, whatever it was. And so I placed a lot of importance around like, my relationships with women, and I just hadn't done it, you know, you're 18 it's like, how much inner work can you possibly do, but I hadn't done a lot of inner work that I've since done to address some of my mental demons. And so in my relationships, you know, anxiety would come up, depression would come up. And it was like, early on in college that, you know, sort of the story that starts my first book was one of the first few weeks of college I had been seeing this girl, we sort of liked each other, but you never know where it's gonna go, or whatever. And she texts me one night, and she's like, you know, I'm coming over just, and she's being a little, like, forceful or whatever, and I don't care, like I'm excited, but at the same time, like, I'm nervous, because I could tell that she had been at a party drinking and, and I hadn't, and I was like, Mom, totally sober. I'm, I'm sort of an awkward person, like, I'm nervous, I don't know how this is gonna go. And she comes over and sits down next to me, and like, My heart is racing, I'm like, sort of on the verge of a panic attack. And then she's like, Oh, my God, like, you're shaking, like, you're freaking out, like, what the heck is going on? Like, you're a freak, whatever, starts calling me all these names. And it's sort of like, I want to put things carefully. Because it's, you know, in the grand scheme of things, this is not the the story was not the end of the world. But at the time, you know, as I was saying, like, when you're 18, it feels as though like, your relationships with women and whatnot are like, they are the end of the world are there everything that matters. And so at the time, you know, this, this really put me, it threw me off, and I was, you know, I woke up the next day, I was like, Oh, my God, that was such an embarrassing experience. Like, I'm humiliated, I don't really even know what that was, I need to go figure out, you know, what I just dealt with, and then also, from there, like, figure out how to move forward. And so that was the beginning of my journey was basically like, you know, if they were shooting a movie, or something like that, the moment at which I woke up at my desk the next morning, you know, sort of in disbelief, that would be sort of the intro shot of like, okay, this is where the journey gets going. And so from there, it was, you know, it's a sort of an unsexy and long journey of just trying to go to different situations, try out different strategies for, you know, a mental health in terms of like, okay, maybe I go to a job interview, and I'm practising box breathing, or something like that, trying out all these different strategies, seeing what's working for me seeing what's not working, and then also just the ups and downs, right? It's like, there's times where you're like, Oh, I'm on top of the world, I've got all this stuff figured out. And then six months later, like you're back, you know, in the pit of despair or something like that. So it was really just like me, you know, a person, a guy wanting to make a little more sense of my own experiences and share those with folks in the sense that, like, I wanted to just do my part to normalise things a little bit more. And so that's what comes forth in you know, my two books, my blogs, the podcast appearances that I give stuff like that

Kristen
makes sense to jump back to what you're seeing the beginning about depression. It is lonely. I think the one thing that I can say with all clients that I work with, is loneliness is right at the forefront. There's shame, feeling like what's wrong with me, something's wrong with me, like, Why do I feel the way I do? And that shame keeps people wanting to stay and hide and hide who they are and suppress a lot of parts of themselves. So how much of your childhood because you know, you're on with a therapist, so we get into that. How much of your childhood Do you think impacted the way not to blame because I'm not into that, like, we're not blaming, but how much of your childhood impacted your anxiety and depression?

Brian
I actually don't think it was a lot to be honest. I came from a great household. My parents are awesome. I've got one sibling, he's great guy. Like, I don't think a lot of it really had to do with like my upbringing. My childhood. It's possible. There was a few events in there like, you know, I'm making this up because I know don't even really have a lot to go off of. It's like, it's possible, you know, some situation at school with a classmate or something like that, like, changes the way that you see the world on a subconscious level. And then like, you know, you're off 15 years in the future, not even realising that your brain is kind of on autopilot mode directing you in this fashion. But I don't have a lot to go off of there. I think it was, like if I had to do some sort of like self diagnosis. And obviously, I've worked with therapists, and we've tried to get through to some of this stuff in the past, I think it's more like from a genetic level, like some of the mental illnesses run in my family. And so I have seen it in myself right. ruminative tendencies, like, I know, my brain sort of defaults to, you know, overthinking over worrying, and whatnot. And that might just be like, the way that my brain chemistry is set up. And so a lot of it has been me trying to not override that, but trying to manage that, you know, being able to say, like, Hey, this is my brain doing its thing, I need to step in here with some sort of executive functioning and say, like, you know, I'm not going to go down that path. Today, I'm going to stop worrying, I'm going to use some sort of method to distract myself to get away from those fear cycles. So I don't know, if it was really too much from the childhood aspect, I think it was really a lot of like, dealing with, like, you know, I use a lot of in my writing, like evolutionary psychology and stuff like that, I like to say, and I think this is sort of an empowering thing, right? It's like, if you look way back in human evolution, and I mean, based on today's hypotheses and stuff like that, it's like, the theory is sort of like, you know, anxiety, and like, the fight or flight mechanism, in general is like a way that our bodies and our like, the species learn to survive, or it was a, you know, sort of one of those things where it's like, it's survival of the fittest, right? It's like, if you in a control group, or whatever, you know, in a vacuum, you put two people in the forest one's got a really overactive fight or flight system, and one doesn't, and you put a bear in front of them, it's like, you just gotta be faster than the slowest person, or whatever it is, right? So it's like, over time, our fight or flight mechanisms helped us survive, right, it became this advantage. And so I like to say from an empowering standpoint, is like, I've got a really great survival based brain. The issue is that worked really well, hundreds of 1000s 10s of 1000s of years ago, today, when we're dealing with modern stressors, where it's like, you know, those things are events on the calendar a week from now that you can't run away from, you can't stomp out immediately. That's where we get into trouble. And then that's, you know, that's one of the reasons why I feel it's so important to bring some of the strategies and insights that I'm not saying it in like a, you know, bragging way or anything like that, but some of those insights that I've cultivated throughout my life, because it's just not obvious, right? It's like, you know, you do have something on the calendar a week or two weeks from now. And, and maybe it has nothing to do with your past or your childhood or something like that. Maybe it is just like, you know, overriding some of the older parts of our brains that like really start sounding the alarms when something seems a little bit scary. Yeah,

Kristen
it's interesting. One of my favourite things to do is put puzzle pieces together, like, oh, like, why is that a trigger for you? Like, why do you loop or ruminate on that? And sometimes we can't figure out the answer. And that's okay. Like, maybe it is a biological situation, or maybe it is something you've learned to use as a survival strategy over time. And perhaps we do link it back to something someone said, on the bus to you when you're six, or seven, or whatever. And it's fascinating when we just open ourselves up to that exploration with keen curiosity, like, Hmm, what could it be? What could have been the trigger? Oh, I didn't even remember that. so and so said that to me on the bus when I was seven, right? And I think keeping that keen curiosity about like, what may be underneath something is part of such an important work, at least in my own life. Because then it's empowering. You're like, No, there's not something wrong with me, that makes sense why I was triggered, because it reminds me of what so and so said to me on the bus, or I had this experience where someone wouldn't sit with me on the bus, oh, then that's whole shame of not belonging not being good enough, you know, that kind of thing. And you're able to go, oh, there's nothing wrong with me. Of course, you feel sad about that, and you didn't get to process it in real time. So I think there is some empowerment that comes with just that exploration in general. I think that to tie what you're saying together, because sometimes it may not be something that you can consciously remember, right? It may not be something maybe a genetic thing, it may be something else. And it's just worth that exploration to see is it something else that lies underneath? So what are some of the strategies that you've learned to cope with that looping thought, like getting out of your head? Because that's tough. I mean, it's hard. We definitely say it. And then in the heat of the moment, we can be like, I want to get out of my head. I'm trying to get out of my head. So what are some of your strategies?

Brian
Yeah, so I think an easier way to answer this question is to talk about my first book. So it's called Get out of your head, a toolkit for living with and overcoming anxiety, the first half of that book, so I mean, the book is split into two parts. So it's like the first half I call it like, you know, it's titled zooming in the second half is called zooming out. So by zooming in, I'm talking about Like we're looking at an analysing situations in which we are already anxious or situations that tend to make us anxious. And so we're trying to say when we are already fearful, what are some of the things that we can do to walk back some of that fear in real time? The second half of the book is like, you know, how do we make it so that anxiety enters our lives less frequently, overall, what are some of the habits that we can cultivate? Let's so if we look into the first half of the book, that's where I talk about some of those specific strategies for you know, breaking out of looping thinking and getting out of our heads. So within that first half, I have what I call the 10 steps to getting out of your head there just, you know, 10 simple strategies that you can leverage when you're not feeling like yourself, when you're feeling worried, fearful, anxious, something like that. We could cover a couple of those. I do like to say like, they're not necessarily like rocket science. I mean, I do run the risk of like, you know, saying some of them and then people being like, this guy's just telling me to breathe. Like, are you kidding? Like, you know, I

Unknown Speaker
say that every podcast? Yeah, it's like, it's so obvious. But, you know, strategy.

Brian
Exactly. And I think, you know, in that's kind of speaks to the fact that like, sometimes it is hard to distil things down, right? If you just like posted a thing on social media, it says, like, breathe, it's like, dude, like, What are you talking about, like, I'm so anxious, like, don't, you know, don't talk down to me as if like, just to say, breathe. That's why I like, you know, sort of long form media, like a podcast, like a book where I can, you know, I can add, in some stories, I can talk about some of the science and whatnot. So like, you know, just to jump into the first step on that list, it is to breathe. And one of the reasons why it's important is like, from a scientific standpoint, we're talking about the fight or flight nervous system, right, it's like, so when we get really revved up, our fight or flight system are worried or fearful, but you know, insert any synonym that we want our fight or flight system that mechanisms are, they're on high alert, they're running really fast, like, you know, our hearts are racing, our palms are sweating, you know, we might have trouble focusing whatever it is, that is called the sympathetic nervous system. And this is sort of just for your listeners, obviously, you know, this already, but and then so the second half of well, I guess, like part of the autonomic nervous system, right, it's got these different divisions. So we've got the sympathetic nervous system, which we can call the fight or flight nervous system. And then we've got the parasympathetic nervous system, which is people call it like, you know, rest and digest or feed and breed where it's kind of like, you know, when this kicks in, we are more relaxed. And that's a, a place in which like, you know, we're not going to be eating when we're running away from a lion or something like that. And so when it comes to breathing, it's like, scientifically, when we breathe in, we activate the sympathetic nervous system like a little bit, our heart rates actually go up a tiny bit. And then when we breathe out, the parasympathetic nervous system kicks in, and we're able to, you know, lower our heart rate. So we're like, constantly like accelerating our heart rate, and decelerating, as we breathe a little bit, right. It's not like, Hey, I'm breathing in, and my heart rates going up to 120. And I'm breathing out, it's down to 40. It's just a little bit of that. But at the same time, it's like when we are already in fight or flight mode, in order to get that parasympathetic nervous system to activate, we need to make sure that we breathe out fully and deeply. And so it's like, if we want to be able to do that we also need to breathe in fully and deeply, right. And so it's, as we're bringing more awareness to our breath and saying, like, Okay, I'm just focusing on, you know, taking a deep breath in taking a deep breath out, we are trying to get that parasympathetic activation, and then that overtime, you know, might take 20 seconds might take 40 seconds, whatever it is, but we are basically sending a message to our bodies like it is, you know, whatever I'm going through is okay, you can turn off the alarm, so to speak. And that's a really important thing, because it's like, when we are in that fight or flight mode, like we don't necessarily have the ability to think like, super critically and analyse things. I mean, if you again, I always go back to like, evolutionary psychology and whatnot is like, if you're in the jungle, and being chased by a lion, like, you know, it's not gonna serve you to stay in there and think like, oh, well, if I do this, if I do that, like, next thing, you know, you're your lunch meat or whatever, right? So it's like, being able to get that parasympathetic activation through the breath, can then sometimes allow us to see things from a different perspective and say, Oh, wow, like, you know, I was really like, I want to speak carefully. I don't want to say the wrong words, but it's like, Oh, I was making a really big deal out of this thing, that maybe it is a big deal. Maybe it's not, but I was maybe blowing it out of proportion a little bit, or I was I had become more attached to the anxiety than the event itself, or the the subject itself. And that that parasympathetic activation allows us to get some of that perspective. So that's one thing that's really helpful. I could jump into a few of the other ones, I guess, you know, just kind of off the cuff right? One thing that I love to do that's really important for me is like physical exercise, like getting, you know, when we're talking about like getting out of your head, it's like one way that we do that to get back into our bodies. And so it's like going to the gym, lifting weights going for a run, super important for me super important for all folks around the globe, like in terms of just battling or fighting off anxiety, not only because when we're working out, we're probably breathing but also we're just we're giving ourselves some sort of internal distraction, right? We're being able to say like, Hey, I'm going on this run, I'm listening to this music that's getting me excited. I'm taking my mind off the worries that are currently in my head and I'm getting back into my body. So I find that really important. I think also, it's just great to be able to like if you find you know, some music that you love, a favourite song a favourite band or something like there's nothing more fun for me on a like, well, maybe I'm using Maven sentiment too strongly, but I love like finding a new album and then like going for a run with it and just like listening to the entire thing. It's it becomes was therapeutic, if you will?

Kristen
Yeah, for sure. I think when people start the breathing, they're thinking, really, this is the strategy. I'm like, this is the strategy. Because when we're doing it regularly, then when you're really activated, you're like, Okay, your mind goes, Okay, my first thing I need to do is breathe. But if you're not practising it regularly, your brain isn't going to automatically go to that, it feels like it would, but it doesn't, especially if people are having panic attacks. So like, I can't breathe, like put your feet on the floor, centre into your feet. You know, like you said, getting back into your body is so important. And I think the other thing is, with these three key strategies are great, because you're releasing what's trapped in the nervous system. So movement helps release what is like bent up in the nervous system, so you're not suppressing it and pushing it down. That's one thing I work with clients a lot on is were we kind of in our childhood, not to go back to that and dwell on it. But I definitely think it plays a huge role for people, because our parents had anxiety, like, we can't pretend like they didn't, because everybody does. Like nobody gets out of it for free. So how did they handle their stress? Their worries, they're overwhelmed. You know, we don't talk about that. Like, I didn't realise my parents had anxiety like that. Were they shaking in a corner? No, but they definitely had anxiety. And then I'm like, Well, how did they handle it? And when I started looking at how they handled their anxiety, it started to create some light on how I handled mine. It's like, they didn't really talk about it, or when they did, they got really dysregulated. But it's interesting to kind of think about things in a different way. They weren't bad. They did. They're good. You know, like you said, you had people come in, I had a great childhood, and they think we have to pick on something. And I'm like, oh, yeah, no, not at all. But how did did your parents loop? That's one thing I've started, did your parents have looping? We might not even know, because we didn't really talk about it. Right?

Brian
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's fine to we're talking about like genetics, right? Or like inheritance, you could say, like, I inherited this from a family member, it's like, I think most of the time when we say something like that, we're talking about genetics, but we can inherit behaviours, or at the, you know, in a similar point, like we at the very least, we have mirror neurons, and we can sort of like reflect what they are doing, right. Like, subconsciously, we see the behaviours that our parents are taking. And we can, you know, without even realising we can kind of integrate that into some of our repertoire. So it is important to, as you're alluding to, like, you know, figuring out how they dealt with certain things, and then questioning like, is it possible that I learned this from them? Yes. And

Kristen
when that curiosity comes, you're like, Oh, I didn't even realise it. Like, it's not something you consciously even thought of, because it's just automatic to your user, like the autonomic nervous system, it's automatic. So you're like, Oh, I get to change that. Now, if I'd like. Now, it can be tough, because we've done it our whole lives, or we've seen it our whole lives. And the great news is, we can totally can when we want to do that. But the strategies I was in a situation over the weekend, where like, this is what I like practical, like real life, like, Okay, that sounds great in theory, and then when you get really activated by something, and it's could be little things like people in traffic, or you're going to be late for something, or someone said something to you that created shame. And when I'm tired, man, it can be tough. So I think sleep because I can feel my brain not being able to access that prefrontal cortex. And you talk about executive function, that rational, calm, logical side of the brain, when I'm tired, that kind of goes offline. I don't know about you. But sleep is essential to my well being like, if I'm not sleeping, these strategies are great, but they're a lot harder.

Brian
Definitely. I think. So I do talk about sleep in the first book in the second part. I mean, there's a really popular book by Matthew Walker, who's a researcher out at I think it's, I want to say it's UCSB, he's a sleep researcher, and I included some of his research in the book, like, you think, like another way to put what you just said is that sleep helps us regulate the, you know, sort of the older parts of our brains, like, you know, people might call it like the reptilian brain or something like that. But the very least like the limbic system might be emotions. And even if we are really good at the, in the moment strategies like implementing those, if we are not sleeping, then at the very least more stress is getting into our brains into our bodies into our daily lives. And then we have to go to battle more often. So it's like, why not use some of those higher level strategies to reduce the amount of stress that is coming in, and then we don't necessarily have to use those those strategies as frequently as we might otherwise. And the other thing too, is like, even though we can get good at fighting off stress, or you know, mitigating stress, it's sort of one of those like death by 1000 paper cuts things. It's like, you could be the best person at fighting it off in the world. But if you're fighting it off, like day after day, and year after year, eventually you're gonna get burned out and we don't want that.

Kristen
Amen to that. So tell me about emotions for you because part of the work I do with people is learning to be okay with that you have all these emotions and they're help you where we want to process and acknowledge them and tend to them rather than numb them suppress, push down or move away from Tell me about your journey with emotions. And have you learned to connect more with those? And has that been helpful to you?

Brian
Yeah, most definitely, I think, you know, obviously two emotions being anxiety or fear, and then depression, a lot of the work that I've done internally is being more like getting to the point where I am more okay with those emotions, right? Because you talked about, like, when we push things down, we create more problems for ourselves, I like to say that we suppress them, and then they fester. And then, you know, five years, 10 years, whatever timeframe like something rears its ugly head, and it's much worse than the original thing that we were dealing with. So I think that's really important. I think the other thing too, is like I talk about candour. In my first book, just being able to like I think about like being an 18 year old. And I'm not saying that, like, I've changed dirt like 100%, or anything like that we're all works in progress, right? But it's like, when I was 18, it was like, you know, you went to the gym, you looked like you tried to be muscular and whatnot. And like, as a guy, right, put on this tough guy image of anxiety, I don't even know what that is. And like, all the while, it's like I am melting down inside, but nobody can know about it. And it's sort of reveals this, like, on the inside. It's like an unwillingness, like, I'm afraid I don't want not only like anxiety and fear, and but like, I am afraid of addressing this thing that I'm dealing with, I don't want to admit it to myself. And that shows that I like, you know, whether it's me or somebody else, like we have work to do, right. And so I think in the however many, many years, let's say that, you know, that was at age 18. And I'm 32 now it's like in those 14 years, and again, I'm working progress, I think we all are, but like, I've definitely made a lot of progress in the sense of like, I just don't care as much anymore, right? It's like, I'm willing to tell people like, I don't feel good today, right? I'm anxious, I'm depressed, whatever it is, it's not always easy to do that. But I'm, I have lost V, like the inner fear of like, the fear of the fear, right? It's like, okay, it's here, I have to do something about, that's how I approach it now. Whereas in the past, it was like, you know, run away, run away, run away, don't deal with this thing at all. And I think the new approach of like, okay, it is here, like kind of meeting it head on, not necessarily in a glamorised way and saying, like, I'm going to war with this thing or anything like that, but being able to be a little bit more accepting of it, and just be like, it is what it is, I think that allows you to, you know, get to the table with what it is that you're dealing with, in a faster and more efficient way. And then all of a sudden, it's like, rather than, like, you know, I don't know, push it off, and sort of like, come up with all these excuses for yourself. It's like, I'm getting down to the negotiation table quickly, because I want to move on from this thing. And I want to get on with the rest of my life, if that makes sense. And obviously, there's a lot of other emotions that come into play, not just anxiety, depression, but also it's like, if I'm feeling sad, or something like that, it's like, becoming a little bit more, okay with some of your emotions allows you to process them, the faster and then it's like, you know, people talk about it as like a ram, excuse me, a river and a dam, right? It's like, okay, you put a dam up on your emotions. And then like, all of a sudden, like, everything is kind of getting blocked there. You let the emotions run through. And it's like, I guess the goal is, you want those emotions, if they're not helpful emotions, right? Or they're frustrating or whatever, you kind of want to just keep them moving, right? It's okay to feel sad, but it's not in our best interest to feel sad every day of the week for you know, for an entire year or something like that. So it's definitely it's a large in sort of nebulous journey in terms of like processing emotions on the high level in terms of like, over the last however many years, but I think becoming more okay with experiencing them and feeling them and then saying to yourself, like, this is part of the the normal human experience. I think that that does go a long way.

Kristen
Yeah. And I think the other piece of it, to piggyback on that is when I loop, like, if I'm getting into looping thoughts, and I like in my head, I'm like, What am I not processing? What am I not feeling? What am I not connecting to emotionally? What am I not releasing? Because then I'm not connectable, like, I'm in my head thinking, thinking, thinking. And sometimes then I'm not sharing that with anybody, or I'm not sharing that in a journal or whatever. I'm not getting it out and processing it. So I just get stuck in my thoughts. And I find that when I share it, and I'm vulnerable, and I'm real, and I'm like, like, this weekend, had a moment and I'm like, I'm having a moment and really have an adjusted time. I'm exhausted, I'm tired, and I feel sad. Like when I name it, then I'm more connectable with those that I'm in relationship with, versus I'm fine feelings inside not expressed, that I'm not very connectable then it's like, well, where do I go from like, people just then don't know what to do then? Because I'm like, I'm fine. And that's kind of like an armour. And so when I'm more vulnerable with what I'm feeling, I find that reduces and that at the beginning, it's hard because you're feeling like, are they going to judge me, reject me abandon me? Think I don't have it all together. I mean, whatever dialogue we have in our head, but I think naming it and sharing it is so powerful for connection.

Brian
I totally agree with that. I think it's funny, you know, sometimes whatever that feeling is becomes like this elephant in the room. It can be like, sometimes people don't know what it is that we're dealing with because we're sheltering it right. But other times, everybody You can be aware that you know, something's going on. And then it's like, there's this elephant in the room. But it's like, No, there isn't like, I'm don't look over there, like, Don't point that or whatever. And so sometimes it is beneficial and helpful to be able to say, like, look, yeah, that is an elephant, and let's just talk about it. And then we can get on with our days with an elephant in the room, or maybe the elephant walks outside or something like that. Exactly. You know, one of the first companies that I worked for after college, we interviewed this woman, I mean, girl, she was, you know, 2021, something like that. And, like, I will never really forget this, because, you know, I've dealt with these emotions, too. But so she walks in, and it was just like, I found it. It was like, so disarming, she just walks up to us, This is so awkward. I'm sorry, I'm so nervous, like, whatever it like. And like, it was almost funny, like, in the sense that she just like, came out and said it, and I respected the heck out of it. I was like, I was like, Look, you like, don't worry about that thing, right? Like, I'm not gonna judge you about it, I actually just gave you a couple points for the fact that you were willing to come in here and talk about it, rather than like, you know, be like pulling out your collar for an hour and then being like, Oh, I don't know how that interview went, right? It's we can again, with like the river analogy, we can kind of let that emotion sort of run its course or just keep moving. And then we can get on with the rest of, you know, whatever the event is, or conversation, interview, something like that. So I thought that was kind of I always enjoy that story.

Kristen
I love that because there's something to be said about naming it and bring it to light. And then it creates more connection. Like you're like, Oh, well that she got points with me because she kind of brought you know, she was real about it. She didn't mask it or pretend or perform or perfect or put on this front. And you'd be like, well, that's not really connectable because it's not authentic. I was listening to a podcast, I can't remember which one it was. But Martha Beck was on it. And she was talking about telling the truth. Like she said, My New Year's resolution is to not tell one white like nothing white lie, not to mask anything. to name it and identify it and say it for like 30 days, I'm going to not even like if someone says how are you? I want to tell the truth. If someone says what's going on with you, I'm going to tell the truth. Like I'm not going to pretend, for some reason that struck me as that because and her mental health improved greatly. And then I'm seeing now research that backs that up, like, the more we tell the truth, the less confined we are in our own heads and our own bodies, because we're like free freedom, liberation, bring it to the light, because the shame wants us to keep it hidden. And I feel like that is what disempowers us and dehumanises us.

Brian
Most definitely, I think one sort of, I don't know what the right word is caveat or something like that is is to say that it is it's undeniably difficult to do these things, right. It's like, just because we're talking about a lot of podcasts. It's not, we're not saying like, Oh, yeah, everybody should go out and do it. It's easy. It is very challenging. You know, we do have unwritten social contracts and social norms, where it's like, this would be a little different based on some of the conversations I have in my normal life, or how this person thinks about me, right? They may not associate the fact that I'm willing to be vulnerable or candid or something like that. At the same time, you know, it's like, the journey starts with the first step. It's like, maybe we start small, and we say, like, you know, if we're going to the grocery store, and the person says, like, Hey, how are you doing today? Maybe one word, right? Rather than saying Fine, you know, your acronym there, we could say something else. And it does, you know, we don't have to necessarily say, basically use the cashier as our therapist, but we could just say, hey, you know, I'm doing okay, I'm a little frustrated today, a little anxious, something like that, right. And then you can just sort of see how that plays. And then you go through a different situation, you try that out. And it's, it's not an all or nothing proposition, right, we're trying to expand a little bit, get a little bit more comfortable, you know, start on the edge of our comfort zones and push out from there. And again, just to say that these things are difficult, they are challenging, but I think there are rewards on the other side, and that's why we talk about them. That's why we recommend strategies like these ones.

Kristen
Yes. I'm so glad you said that. Because that is so true. Because we make it sound so easy. Just breathe or just do this or just be truthful. And it's no we're so conditioned to protect ourselves from being judged. You know, all the things that it's scary sometimes when we first start dipping our toe in the water to try some of these things out.

Brian
Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna do a shameless plug here. You know, that was sort of the ethos of what we're talking about right now is why my brand looks the way it does and then also like the way that my content is structured, right? If you look at my logo for get out of your head, it's this like, sort of like demonic looking like snake.

Kristen
I noticed that I was like, Whoa, this is heavy duty, but that's yeah, sometimes Yeah.

Brian
Yeah, exactly. It's like this like snake combined with his brain. And we're, you know, we're sort of pulling up different emotions and symbolism there. The idea is, like, you know, again, the journey is constant. We're kind of always on it. We're always improving or sometimes going backwards, sometimes going forwards. But over the last 14 years I was on this journey was like, I'm looking at different brands in the space and like, don't get me wrong. Like I say this on basically every podcast that I've talked about the brand on is like there are a lot of brands out there that are like mental health and it's like sunshine and you know, rainbows and unicorns and stuff like that. And that's great. Like people do need to have a sense of positivity, optimism that they can get through what it is that they're getting through. This is just personal opinion. But what I feel those brands are sometimes missing is the honesty piece and the honesty is the pain, right? If we just say, hey, like, do this thing, and all of a sudden the sun comes back out. It's like, well, I just did that. And now I'm depressed again, like, What the hell am I supposed to do now? Right? Yes,

Kristen
that's all my work that didn't work. And I'm not doing that again.

Brian
Exactly. Yep. So my brand is, you know, bringing in that pain piece and acknowledging it, not necessarily like harping on and then saying, like, Oh, this is also difficult, we'll never get over it. But giving that piece it's dude giving it its credit and saying, like, this stuff is difficult. We have to talk about it. Otherwise, we're gonna get to that point where we're like, this stuff doesn't work. Like what am I doing? You know, so bringing that piece and I think is important. And that comes back to the candour, right, it's like wanting to give this stuff its space and say like, this is going to be a difficult journey. But at the same time, we will make progress. And we will get there in time, it might take a while. But I guess you gotta trust me yourself, folks that you're working with. And we'll get there. But it could be hard at times.

Kristen
Yeah, I kind of feel like sometimes people like I felt like I 20 steps forward, and 30 steps back, and I'm like, welcome, welcome, you did nothing wrong. It's called this welcome to this journey. This up and down. It's hills and valleys. And when you feel empowered to have the self awareness, that is so empowering, it's when we don't know ourselves or feel like we don't know what to do, we feel lost. And I think pain feels very dark. It feels very lonely. It feels very heavy, it feels like a burden and a weight you're carrying around. And when you start to say, You know what, I'm not gonna keep going and pushing this down, I'm going to actually give it what it needs, which is love and nurturing and making it sound easy. Again, it's not compassion, and I'm willing to really expand my window of tolerance for the discomfort for the fear for what it brings up and go, Okay, I can handle this and tend to it the results. Yes, you're going to still have stuff in your life, you're still going to have shame, it doesn't just disappear. That's one of the misnomers. I think people think, well, I'll never feel that again. Like, no shame is going to come and go, that feeling of not feeling good enough, it's you being able to kind of love and tend to it that transforms it, rather than going What's wrong with you, you know, talking to yourself in such a brutal way, which we all can do at times. Yeah,

Brian
absolutely. But you made a lot of great points, a couple of things I want to jump on, I will say I get a little background noise right now, just like there's some construction going on across the street. I hope it's not too bad. But you know, you had mentioned like, oh, bringing in like the, you know, the acceptance or some of the positive feelings and stuff. It's like, that is the point, right? It's like, it's not to dwell on the negative, it's the fusion of both the dark and light and be exactly, inevitably a part of the journey, I think we have to accept both sides of that. The other thing in terms of like, you know, taking steps forward, and then taking steps back. And also, you know, the dark and the light is like sometimes I like to think of like mental health or just the journey in general, like, like, if you look at like the stock market right over time, like, you know, the 100 year chart or something like that. And this is obviously not an economics or finance podcast. And so we're not, this is a very, very high level analogy, not not actually going into where the economy is, and whatnot. But at the same time, it's like, if you look at that chart, the general direction is up right? of stocks. But at the same time, even though like the country and the economy and whatnot, is in a better place than it was 150 years ago, we can still have bear markets, like we can draw down 40% 20%, something like that. And so the mental health journey is one like that, where it's in general, the overall trajectory is upward, but there are going to be days where it feels like we are really, really down and we're not making progress. Sometimes it's helpful to look backwards and say, remember, where I was in high school, I was an anxious mess, I was dealing with XYZ. You know, sometimes we trade in a certain problem for a different kind of problem down the road. Sometimes that new problem is better or worse than the other. But in general, I think that when we look back, and this is not like it's not a 100% of the time sort of thing, I think, in general, the the overall trajectory of like, Hey, I'm integrating these new ideas, I'm listening to these podcasts, I'm going to therapy and picking up different strategies. In general, I think we are improving overall, we need to sometimes zoom out, right and look at the chart and see that that's happening. Because if we're looking at the one year chart, things look really bad. If we look at the 100 year chart, it's like oh, things are looking actually solid. Overall, we may just be in a little bit of a valley right now.

Kristen
Yeah. And I think when we get in the valley, it's knowing it's temporary. Like it may feel like it's permanent. And it may be a sustained period of time. But knowing that it's temporary, our brain doesn't know that it feels like it's forever.

Brian
And it is hard to I mean, obvious. I think we could have this podcast for several hours today if we wanted to. I mean, I think one of the challenging things is that like when we get into one of those states where you know, we feel pessimistic we feel as though things won't go our way, helpless, hopeless, whatever it is, like with a change in state comes a change in our outlook and our story, and then all of a sudden, it's like no, no, everything is different, right? I'm looking over here and you know, where I used to see flowers, I now see weeds or something like that, right? And it's this trick that our brain plays on us where it's like, we think we then need to go into the garden and pull the weeds and plant the flowers and whatnot. It's like, No, we actually need to figure out a, you know, some metaphorical way of having the sun come back out. And then all of a sudden, we look back at the weeds. And we're like, those look like flowers now, right? It's this trick that our brains play on us when we fall into different states. It's, I think Tony Robbins sometimes says state story strategy, right? It's really important insight.

Kristen
Yeah, awesome. I am so grateful for our conversation. And I hope you feel less alone. For those that are listening. You feel like we're on this journey together? Because sometimes you just need to hear that, you know, you're not alone in this, even though it feels so lonely at times. Where can people find you? If they're interested in knowing more about you? Where can they find you?

Brian
Yeah, best place when we get out of your head.com. that's all one word, no dashes, no spaces there, you can find my books, my blog, some of the merch on the website, if you want to, you know, books are available on all the major retailers, but either going through the site, or then, you know, going to Amazon typing in my name is the most helpful. There's another brand of the same name actually kind of going through some challenges with that right now. So you might get confused. I would just recommend, like, you know, looking for me looking for my name, or going to my website, that way you find what it is that you're looking for. So

Kristen
yeah, it's a great name. It's a great title. I mean, so many people are like, I feel tortured in my head, if I could just get out of my head. And all the strategies we talked about, I think some key ones today. And also, I think the takeaway from today from me, just with our time together, is when you can connect to your body, to your emotions, to what's going on, on the inside. It's actually what frees you from getting out of your own head, um, summarise me I know, that's, that's pretty big. It sounds so simple. And there's lots of layers here. But that's my takeaway for today, in our conversation together. Is there anything else you wanted to add?

Brian
You know, I usually say something to the tune of what you said before that last sentence was, which was basically, you know, I hope that folks that are listening feel as though they're not alone, you know, I try to come at my writings and my podcast appearances and whatnot, not from a point of like talking down to folks, but like being there with them, like I'm on this journey with you. You know, maybe that might sound a little scary, because it's like the quote unquote, expert that you're listening to, also has his or her own struggles. But that's how it goes in general, right. And I think once we can sort of tap into that shared humanity aspect, it, it becomes a little bit easier, I do sign I do put that message forth, in a sense of solidarity, right? It's like, I want people to know that we are there with them. And, you know, if there is something that folks are struggling with, like, I guess I would speak directly to the listener, it's like you really aren't alone. You know, if you do want to reach out, feel free to, you know, there's a contact form on my website, you could reach out to me on Instagram, the the handle there is also get out of your head, it's really just about building the community and helping people feel as though you know, they have some agency and able to move forward in their lives and have a little bit of just confidence that they can tackle some of the things that they're dealing with that obviously are at times very challenging.

Kristen
Yes, I agree. 100%. And I think there's something to be said about people that are also doing work, because it feels like there's a safety, they're like, Oh, my, I'm safe here because we're all coming from our shared humanity. And that's when I first started this podcast, I was scared to talk about all my stuff, so to speak, which we all have every single human on the planet. And when I started to the feedback I was getting from clients are like, Oh, my gosh, I wish you are so much more relatable. And I loved hearing those stories. And thank you for sharing it was that is what creates connection. Vulnerability is what creates connection. I know it's scary, and I have to work on it every day, because I was not conditioned that way. And society hasn't conditioned us that way. Yet. The tide is turning. We're thirsty. For more honesty, We're thirsty for some of these deeper conversations. And this is the time so thank you for your time here, Brian. It was a pleasure talking to you, and encourage people to go and check you out.

Brian
Thanks, Chris. Sounds great conversation. And I know you put it so eloquently there. Yeah, I don't know if I have anything to add. So just thanks for the time. Yeah.

Kristen
Thanks, Brian. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making sustainable change in your life. If you enjoyed this episode, click the subscribe button to be sure to get the updated episodes every week, and share with a friend or family member. For more information about how to get connected visit kristendboice.com Thanks and have a great day.