Kristen
Welcome to the close the chapter podcast. I am Kristen Boice a licenced Marriage and Family Therapist with a private practice Pathways to Healing Counselling. Through conversations, education, strategies and shared stories. We will be closing the chapter on all the thoughts, feelings, people and circumstances that don't serve you anymore. And open that door to possibilities and the real you. You won't want to miss an episode, so be sure to subscribe. I am so excited for our podcast today. And my guest today, let me introduce you with their bio because it's very impressive, and I think it sets up our conversation very well. for over 25 years, doctors Michael and Barbara Grossman have taught 1000s of couples practical skills to create fulfilling romantic partnerships. They have TV appearances on CBS, NBC, Fox and CW tune into this powerful interview today to discover the secrets to having a fulfilling long term romantic partnership with genuine love that lasts forever through all the phases of life. We're going to talk about longevity too, because Dr. Michael specialises in that as well. And Dr. Michael is the author of five books, the vitality connection 10 practical ways to optimise health and reverse the ageing process. Yes, I'd like to sign up for that. The magic of stem cells awakening your healing power secrets to deep effortless meditation revealing the treasures within love the title of that and then together with his wife, Dr. Barbara, they have authored the marriage math road to transforming your marriage from ordeal to adventure, I want to explore that from ordeal to adventure. I thought that title was very intriguing. He just loved the sexy science of falling in love forever. Dr. Barbara has published articles on faith and relationship development, including time and marriage.com. They've also been interviewed on numerous radio stations. And Michael and Barbara are competitive ballroom dancers. They have two married daughters and seven grandchildren. Welcome to the close the chapter podcast.

Dr. Michael
Thank you. Thank you.

Kristen
I am pleased and delighted that you're joining me today. So if you would share a little bit about we have a little bit of background, but tell me how you got into this field exactly one on longevity and two on marriage and creating healthy long term partnerships.

Dr. Michael
Well, the longevity feel I was in medical school, pretty stressed out. And I learned meditation. And it was such a change in my physiology, I just felt so so much better, calmer and more peaceful. And I began to pursuing that I did research on meditation and published some articles on it. And it's been a part of my life. I've been meditating, you know, every day for November 1970 or so. And I taught meditation to 1000s of people. So that that kind of had pushed me into this whole area of of integrative medicine back then we had different names for it. So that's what I was doing. And so that was a big background of where I came from in terms of my medicine.

Kristen
I love that you've meditated every single day, seven days, twice. Wow, that's impressive.

Dr. Barbara
I would add also, as I observed, Michael, is that I don't think he's ever been completely satisfied by conventional medicine. He's looked for, you know what's outside of the box to really help people grow and thrive, not just survive, and he's got a itinerary have solutions for people that really expand life and longevity. I'm privileged to benefit from it. I'm not a youngster. And I you know, I feel young and vital. And I compete not just with Michael but with a 35 year old coach, and I keep up with him. And I've got muscles and I'm just you know, dynamic in life. She's

Dr. Michael
71 I'm 72 We really love competing. It's really, really it's very intense.

Kristen
That's amazing. How long have you been ballroom dancing?

Dr. Michael
About 10 years?

Dr. Barbara
Okay, I think for longer, but we've we've gotten serious the last 10 years.

Kristen
Oh, congratulations. That's amazing. What Dr. Barber you had mentioned that Dr. Michael kind of really has helped you gain longevity so far, like some vitality. And some you know that he's taught you some secrets. What has he taught you?

Dr. Barbara
Well, I'm a patient here. And I can't say from the technical end what he does, but I know that I have appropriate hormones that boost my energy level. And you know, my mind is alert. I'm active on dynamic 15 hours a day, seven days a week and life is beautiful. I don't feel any less than I was when I was 40. So and I think that's possible for anyone who's interested in cultivating, you know, good health and it's not available and in conventional medicine.

Kristen
I'm interested. So what are some of your secrets? Dr. Michael,

Dr. Michael
all those things are a part of romantic love because you can't have them After passion without the physiology that allows it to continue. So for most men and women, but at time they're 60 years old, they're feeling old, and everything goes downhill, including romantic passion. For women, yeah.

Kristen Boice
Yeah, for sure. What are your secrets? How do you help people have thrived?

Dr. Michael
Well, we use natural hormone replacement very different than synthetics, natural hormone replacement. It restores brain vitality, physical muscle, stamina, endurance, the BETO general enthusiasm, and you just feel energetic. And so we have a variety of different hormones that we use for men and women. And they all have a value and adding them all up just makes you just feel 20 years younger.

Kristen
One of the questions I had I was looking through your love quiz that you have online, and you had alluded that there are five unconscious kind of barriers to long lasting love what and that 90% of couples struggle with this? What are the five barriers that get in the way of romantic love? Well,

Dr. Michael
as love evolves over the years, there are different issues that can come up. So one issue that's really important is the whole parenting issue for couples who are parenting unless you're parenting together, and you're harmonious with your partner about what the rules are, how you deal with the various issues with your kids, and it always changes with kids, whatever you do in there, too, is different than six different than when they're 13. Unless the couple is able to manage it together, they're gonna just have a big issues. And so that's one of the things that we teach in our video courses online. Parenting huge, huge issue for for couples. That's one second one would think about is how to be feel like you're number one with your partner, we get so busy with things life to sort of takes over and we get busy, busy, busy. And when you no longer feel like you're number one with your partner, you can't have your career be number one, your Trump will be number one, your finances being number one, you've got to have your point of view number one and how to do that. Boy, that's a big issue. And we teach how to do that. It's very practical, because

Dr. Barbara
you still have to be responsible for all those other things. So it's a matter of paying attention. Right?

Dr. Michael
Right. So that will be another issue, then another issue can be the whole issue of sexual relationship of the passion and intimacy, the touching and the experience of fulfilment that you once had earlier in your relationship, how to maintain that, that's a combination of things that you have to do. So we talked about the hormones, yes, you want to have somebody who does natural hormone replacement, but there's a lot of other issues you have to relate to in terms of maintaining that physical passion, and which is so important for longevity and for the intimacy and the connection between the couple. So we have a whole course on that video course that walks you through the practical skills you need. In each of these areas. We teach practical skills. It's not like a big intellectual thing. It's more like, Okay, let's get to the practical skills, then we have issues that relate to money, couples have trouble with money. I mean, money can cause huge upsets in the relationship. And you have to have certain perspectives and skills and manage how you deal with money in a relationship. And money is so different from Barbara and I, it's so different. It's so funny, because I was taught by my dad, and I work with my two brothers, we had a business my whole life growing up, my father owned a dry cleaning store. And I always had ways of making money. We had our own business, we clean things in all the cottages by the beach in the summertime. So it was a wealthy teenager. So I have a good relation to money, money. I know I always have enough, if I don't have enough, I'll just work and get more. Barbara never had a job till she was in college. And I got her the job. I let him work. And they first time she had been made money. So she has a different relationship to money. She's always worried how is the money going to be there? Because when she grew up, she got an allowance and if she didn't save it to this guy, and so how do you have a relationship over 50 years about money, you've got to have some skills to talk to each other, understand each other realise that they're not complete idiots, but they actually have a reason why they're the way they are. And then you have to come together. So that's money. And then there's one more or less the other thing, arguing, arguing can be a huge bearish arguing of the very big factor. And so how do you deal with arguing? We have practical skills that take you through a process where arguing is eliminated. And we love doing that. It's a great so those are the five barriers that we teach and the courses are great, they're online, you work with your partner and you have homework after each class and you do it and you develop the skills by the end of the three 20 minute classes and homework, you have skills that really will help you with any of these problems.

Kristen
So Dr. Barbara, what are some of the practical skills that you teach to couples?

Dr. Barbara
Well, we fundamentally teach people how to be calm and open, we've created exercises that you just follow and listening to each other and working through differences, your relationship is so easy in the beginning, and then we come up against our differences. And most of us are not even conscious of where our differences come from. So we have other skills that help couples understand the history of our feelings, and how it is we come to be feel so strong about certain things. And it's shared in an atmosphere of open heartedness and sharing, not in attacking or defending, and it really helps a couple understand each other. And it diffuses the energy that's so you know, unpleasant and difficult, and in the way of solving problems,

Kristen
because as a marriage and family therapist, what I find is couples come in, and they think that they're fighting over the spilled milk. And what really it is, it's so much deeper, we have inner child work, we have family of origin, how our primary caregivers functioned, how did they disagree, and you alluded to money, like how you grew up differently, and we don't realise that we're bringing all of that into the relationship. It's a crowded room, right? It's a crowded room with lots of players and lots of different parts of ourselves in the room. And when we get activated by something, if we don't do the deeper work, we don't discover that it's something that lies underneath the surface, and tied to a younger part typically. So with couples, I find it's essential for self awareness. Can you talk about meditation and how that ties in to self awareness.

Dr. Michael
So meditation is a skill that allows the individual to feel a sense of peace and calmness inside themselves. And this peace and calmness is getting in touch with your own inner nature, which is something that's beyond your personality, you have a personality that is set by you know, your family of origin and all the experiences in your life. But you also have part of yourself that's much bigger than that. And to get in touch with that you feel that sense of peace. It's both a spiritual experience. And it's also a physical experience. So the physical experiences, your brainwaves change, your hormones change, your whole physiology changes, you're resting twice as deep as you are when you're sleeping. And yet you feel a sense of being awakened side in a deep sense of peace. And then you come out of that experience, and all the things that were upsetting you are sort of, they're still there, but then they don't impact you so much, you feel a sense of calmness inside. And when you have that sense of calmness inside, you can more easily listen to your partner without getting overwhelmed by it and understand that they're different than you because you're experiencing peace. And it's just so much more easy to hear something that is normally outside of your feeling of oh, that's normal. And so it helps the relationship because you're getting a piece from inside, if you're dependent upon your partner for creating your piece that creates a big problem, you put a lot of pressure on your partner, when you can create an inside yourself that relieves your partner from all kinds of issues. Now they can you can just come together in a different kind of a quality of a relationship. So meditation is very, very important. On so many levels, the physiology level and the spiritual level of knowing that your peace comes from inside yourself.

Kristen
I think you said something really important that I want to highlight when we look to our partner to make us feel or create peace or happiness that creates unhealthy dynamic, because we're not getting that from within we're looking to which is typically an inner child part saying Do you love me? Do you need me? Do you want me? Am I important to you rather than you being able to come to that yourself? And that's icing on the cake for your partner to offer that to you. And we want healthy relationships, right? That that flows through you to yourself first and then the other person. So meditation I find clients get scared by that word because they're like, I can't I can't go off to a retreat centre and do this or I can't sit for more than three minutes. What do you say to someone that gets overwhelmed by the thought of stillness, quiet meditation?

Dr. Michael
Well, I've taught 1000s of people to meditate and the only people who cannot learn easily and effortlessly those people have Alzheimer's because they can't remember from one minute to the next what I tell them, everyone else can learn from it. And I can't tell you how many people have come to me and say, Oh, I can't meditate. I've tried all these things, and they do what I tell them to do. And then it's effortless. So I Teach us the name of my book deep, effortless and deep meditation effortless, effortless, I teach you how to do it effortlessly. And as a matter of fact, effort is not allowed. That's the only mistake you can make Mr. Joy. So when the apple falls from the tree, it's not trying to do anything, it just falls because all the forces of nature are there, and you just let it happen. So that's what meditation does, like pulling the arrow back on a bow, you just pull it back, and then you just let go, there's nothing to do. So once you follow my instructions is pulling the arrow back and then you let go. And it's efficacy, as I mentioned, in the meditation, so I do a meditation online on Zoom, do it twice a week, Sunday nights, 730, Sunday afternoon, 1230. And Thursday night at 730. Pacific time, and I don't charge for it. It's easy, effortless, people welcome to join, they go to Dr. Michael, that's Dr. Michael meditation secrets with an s.com. And they can just sign up and then everyone learns to meditate really, really easily. It's just an important part of a longevity programme, we really need to do that. That's one of the foundational things that I teach, teach people to do.

Kristen
Because you're really working on yourself. So you can be the freest healthiest version of yourself, what are some tips that you would give people to start, like, what would be some tips

Dr. Michael
to start to meditate? So I tell people, when you meditate, don't try to get rid of your thoughts. Do not try to get rid of your thoughts that don't come and go during the supermarket shopping, don't try to get rid of the other shoppers, you just have a direction, you're gonna buy bananas and apples. But you don't you don't push people out of the way and say, Hey, you're on my way, I want to get to the apples. No, you just let the other people but people are your thoughts. And they're doing what they're doing. And you just neutral about and you're going with whatever your direction is, and just be neutral about your thoughts. And the other thing I tell people is don't try to keep on focusing because I do guided meditations. And don't try to keep on listening to everything I'm saying if you're slipping away, and everything is going to be quiet and peaceful. Don't think, Oh, I've got to keep on listening. No, no, that's fine, you can step away. And when you fall into this place where you're feeling like you're in a bounded infinitely quiet place that you don't know where you are, you don't know who you are, you don't know anything other than you just awake. That's good. Don't worry about it. When thoughts come in, then you come back to whatever is the instructions. So that's kind of the background.

Kristen
Sounds lovely. I was getting lost in your words. I was like, Oh, yes, I'm meditating. I think people if they would open up to the idea of just allowing what's there to be there, it feels less performative feel like a lot of people feel like I got to perform, I feel anxious. Am I doing it? Right? Right. And then they get caught up in that our conditioning of having to do it, right.

Dr. Michael
So actually, right. So I teach my meditation classes that you have a personality that wants to get it right, and wants to do it the right way, and wants to score well. And all that as well. We want to let go of personality. And then you have this infinite self, this soul that's very, very big. And that's what you want to let come through, in which case that personality thing be part of the thoughts. Don't pay any attention to it. It's like having a puppy just okay, this just sit here, it's okay. And then you have this bigger self that you're bringing in as what we're doing meditate.

Kristen
Yes. And there's internal family systems. I don't know if you've heard of that in the therapy world with Richard Schwartz, he calls it the capital S. Well, there's the soul self. And he calls another part, the capital S self, which is the self that kind of the most conscious part of yourself that can nurture the other parts of yourself, speak to them in a loving way, nurture them, welcome them all to the table. That's kind of what you're saying. Just welcome everybody. It's okay. You don't have to do it. Your personality wants to do it, right. Get the gold star. And you're saying that's just let it all come through. And don't worry about doing it. Right. So Dr. Barbara, do you meditate too, or tell me a little bit about your journey with it? If so, I do.

Dr. Barbara
I learned to meditate maybe 50 years ago, and I became a meditation teacher as well. That's not my primary purpose in life. But I do meditate. And I go on retreats and meditate for extended periods of time at various intervals of time. My main message has to do with the development of personality over time. And when couples get together, they assume they're going to be the same forever. And because I've studied it, and I know from personal experience that in certain increments of time we change and as a consequence, our relationship changes. And what was peaceful and blissful becomes eventually much more conflict oriented. Because we differentiate, we become more individuated. And so conflict is not a bad thing. It's not wrong. It's part of the game of life to grow. And the key is to learn how to negotiate that developmental state. Ah, it happens at different times for men and women, if you're at home with your babies, you're going to be delayed in that development because you're busy caring for a child and feeling connected and not in not focused on your personal individual development. And so if you one of the partners gets to that individuated stage first, you'll be much more focused on their own needs and desires, and less about the common good. And so that sets up a conflict that can take five to 10 years to resolve if you don't have skills. And eventually, it sounds like it's better if both partners get to that individuated stage together. But really, that's another version of the same problem you have to headstrong people who are going to power struggle through their wants and desires. And that's another powderkeg for relationship. And there are stages beyond that, that are much more kind to us. But we map that out for couples, so they understand that what they're going through, there's nothing wrong about either of them. But there's a way to move through that and respect each other as each partner learns to define themselves and what they want and need in their lives and in their relationship. And we're, it's such an important distinction, because I think many people have the idea, well, you become an adult, and that's a stationary place. It's not stationary. Life is very dynamic.

Kristen
I love that I did a whole podcast episode on differentiation, because I see it every single day in my practice with clients. And in my own life, noticing differentiation, when you can have your own thoughts, feelings and opinions. And it's okay, and you learn to navigate your partner can have their own thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Even if they're different than yours, it's not a threat to you, it's not a threat to your security, it's not a threat to your now, of course, this is a given if there's no abuse in the relationship.

Dr. Barbara
And the key is learning how to share how to talk. We're not taught that way. And families because we're children, there's no reason we're not that developed internally to have so much complexity. So we need to learn it on the job as we get there. So as we reach our 30s and 40s, when that's a primetime issue, we need to really revamp how we share and share our feelings and thoughts.

Kristen
How did you to navigate differentiation, when you are coming up with your own sense of self,

Dr. Barbara
Michael loves to tell the story about he loved our first relationship? Yes, tell us,

Kristen
Oh, we were married

Dr. Michael
21 and 20. When we were I was 21. She was 20. And we had 10 years of a wonderful relationship that I love. We do whatever I thought was a great relationship. But it was very comfortable. And then she went back to graduate school. And she started thinking for herself and having our own ideas and our own feelings and our own expressions. And we had five, six years of really difficult relationships. And we did a lot of counselling that was almost worthless, because they would just focus on one person. And the counsellors didn't have the skills to teach us the skills we needed to make relationship work. They just weren't working on one person. And it just didn't seem to be helpful. We had many mentors, and we took all these courses and classes that Dr. Barber told me to do. And I said, Okay, I'll do it only because I want the marriage to work. I didn't want to get divorced and have kids who were divorced. But she had me do all kinds of classes and courses that I never would have done on my own. It was psychological spiritual forces, I was into the meditation course. And we did courses and I learned a huge amount about how to share how to talk how to relate in a different way. And that was really the keys to what we did. And then out of that, we created our own courses and classes for our own clients and patients. And we've been teaching on clients and patients for years. And now we're looking to expand and share this with the world really,

Dr. Barbara
our mentors really loved us into understanding that we were both right. And we needed to learn how to treat each other properly and respect each other and

Dr. Michael
honour the differences and yet still make requests of each other for what works for us, which is a very skillful, it's kind of like ballroom dancing, we talk about the metaphor of ballroom dancing as a way to understand relationship when you want on dancing, as you see it on Dancing with the Stars we are holding in dented wall and you're in a hole. And so the hole is very restricted, and you have to hold so how can you dance and move and be fluid and all that while you're in a hole? And that's what you're doing in romantic relationships. I'm married, it's a one on one we're gonna be here no one else is allowed in? How do we have that flexibility and movement to have self expression? And how do you do that? Well, more than dancing and stand alone dancing. It's quite a clear metaphor for what it's almost like if you think about basketball players, they don't just go on the court and run around and do whatever they want. There's all these different plays and rules and way to do it within that you have to be creative. So that's what we

Kristen
do. So what are your three biggest takeaways from all the work you've done? You went to the marriage counselling, you had mentors, you did classes. I'm sure you read books. So what are the three biggest takeaways that you've learned and put into practice to really have a healthy connective sustainable relationship? So

Dr. Michael
we have three secrets to a fulfilling, falling in love forever relationship. So you couldn't want is don't expect a smooth ride, it's not going to be smooth. It's not above the beast mode, it's supposed to be intense, it's supposed to push you into growing. And wherever you are, when you're 20, it's very different than when you're 30 Very different than when you're 40. When you're 50 is going to constantly change, and you have to deal with it and stop complaining about it. It's just the way it's supposed to be. That is romantic relationship. That's number one. Number two, if you're not listening to your partner without interrupting, then you're not really listening. And what that means is that if in your mind, you're thinking, okay, as soon as they stopped giving me a little break, I'm gonna show them that I'm right and they're wrong, then you're not really listening to them. Don't Don't even think about interrupting them, you want to understand their point of view is so different than your point of view. And it's not bad. It's not right. It's not wrong, it's different. So stop trying to interrupt them and convince them you're right, and they're wrong. That's number two. And number three, don't expect your partner to naturally intuitively understand what makes you happy, just because it was that way when you first met. I mean, it was natural, intuitive. You just did what made him happy. And he was so easy. When you change 10 years, 20 years later, it's not intuitive and natural, that different than they were, you're different than when you work. You've got to be sharing with them, what really makes you happy, not where you're blaming them. But you've got to understand us the way it is. So you've got to be able to make requests nicely soft, Dr. Barbara

Kristen
or Dr. Michael, how do you make a request from each other? Give me an example. So I

Dr. Barbara
tell Michael, it really makes me happy. If you set aside time for us this evening, I miss you. And I'd love to be with you. Can you make that work for you?

Kristen
Okay, and then Dr. Michael, if you don't want to do that, is there times when you're like, Yeah, I'm so busy. Oh, I

Dr. Michael
can say I can't do it tonight because of XY and Z is right there. But tomorrow, I can do it tomorrow. After eight o'clock, I'm free. We can have a whole evening together.

Kristen
And then you would initiate tomorrow night at eight o'clock. So this is where couples get caught up. They're like, well, he said he come back at eight and then I waited. And if you don't come back at eight, so would that be on you to come back at eight?

Dr. Michael
Well, we would have to guess because I agree at eight o'clock. I've already made that agreement. So if I couldn't make it, I would have call and say, Hey, there's an emergency that happened. So on, I can't make it. Can we make it nine o'clock? Can you make it tomorrow night? I'm really sorry? Yes, I would need to do that. So I've already agreed to do that.

Kristen
And so what do you tell people that have fears around asking directly? And specifically, because this is what I encourage couples to do? Because you're like, why I want to be with you. But that's so vague, like you gave a specific time you gave specificity around it. And if we just say, Well, I feel like you're not present the other person's like Bob and President. And they'll go and argue that instead of being specific, like would you mind putting down your phone, right? So we can connect without distraction? being specific? What do you say to someone that has fears around being clear and direct and specific? Well, your fears

Dr. Barbara
will probably prove your fears true if you're not specific. And you need to specify exactly what you want that are the conditions of satisfaction for the experience you want. And yes, you may get a no or you may get in negotiation too. But it'll be on the table what you want, and you will connect you won't be in your head about what's missing that you haven't articulated

Dr. Michael
and what we teach in our classes and courses. And besides the video courses, we have an in person course or Zoom online course where we have a two hour classes, the videos are just 20 minutes, but we have two hour classes where we teach you the skills. And so what we want for our couples to do is to actually practice the skills so you don't wait for big upset, we have to go to this special event that is really critical. My sister is getting married on Wednesday at two o'clock. And if you don't go there, I'm leaving and gone forever putting the marriage we're not teaching them to do that. We want to practice and just practice. I'd love to have flowers once a week. Can you bring me a dozen flowers once a week that would really make me happy. That's a practice. And then the husband comes home with three wilted flowers that he picked from the garden, right? And we teach the woman to say, Oh, thank you so much for the flowers. I love them. They're so wonderful. And make the guy feel good about it. Don't beat him up. Don't want to beat him down. And then when he feels good about the flowers, then next time you ask them for flowers, you ask him Oh, and I love to have 12 Yellow roses next week. Can you do that? And the guy says, Well, I can do it on Wednesday. So that's fine. Wednesday is good. So then he brings home six yellow roses, because you're gonna bring a dozen, but you just tell him Oh, thank you so much for making this up. So you're training your guy that when you ask for something, he's going to win. He's going to be happy. You're not beating them up. And then we also train you to say ask for different things that next week and he only does two when you tell him how great he is for doing the two you're not beating him up because he didn't do all four. So we have all these ways we're training you so that you have to relearn new habits with each other. And you want your guy to feel like he could win easily with you, he loves doing things, he doesn't want to do it, if you're going to beat him up,

Dr. Barbara
each gender has their own sensitivities. And we don't entirely understand the other sensitivities. And so we practice specific skill. So we teach couples, how to partners how to win with each other,

Kristen
I find also with couples will say, Well, you just did that because I asked you to, they end up in a no win situation, right? Well, you just brought me the flowers, because I told you, how did I not told you you wouldn't brought me flowers? Well, we're trying to make progress here. And they don't know. So now we're being clear and specific. And so we have to work on that mindset that you're only doing this because I told you to

Dr. Barbara
women who have no idea how much men want to win with their ladies and how tender inside they are. It's a well kept secret in our culture. I'm not sure the origins of it. But men and women really need to understand each other.

Kristen
Yes, I find a lot of what we want, quote unquote, to make us happy is unmet needs from our childhood. So if we didn't get a lot of acknowledgement, as a child, we might have words of affirmation is we have the five love languages that Gary Chapman came up with. But my theory is that's rooted in unmet needs. So it can be because you got a lot of that as a child as well. And that felt good. I'm not saying it's an all or nothing but those unmet needs play out in relationships. And isn't

Dr. Barbara
it wonderful to get those needs met, finally, by your partner, it's so satisfying, and it should win. And there should be lots of gratitude for experiencing what's been desired for such a long time.

Kristen Boice
And then kind of noticing, I think is important also is projection. So you're putting on your partner, this unmet need, where it's really not his or her job to fill that that's kind of a bonus, like, we've teach that as a bonus to also work on your own unmet needs. So whether it's meditation, you're going out on a walk, you're petting the dog, I'm making this up, but you get the idea where you're also tending to those that met needs and not putting everything and I think we alluded to this earlier on the podcast on the partner, because it's setting the partner up as a parent rather than a partner. That's which isn't sexy. No, you're not turned on by that you're like, Yeah, this is not attractive. So we have to watch kind of that deeper work of am I putting on this unmet need, that's not realistic on my partner, that's not his or her job to fill. That's just a bonus to create more connection.

Dr. Barbara
If there's something you can fulfil for your partner, what a blessing but it's a healing

Kristen Boice
icing on the cake. I mean, you're really offering up because you're in flow. You see if I'm feeling like, I want to love my partner, well, that really lands profoundly because I'm not expecting strings attached. So I have couples that have come in, and they're like a ledger, I gave you your flowers two weeks in a row, and you did nothing for me. And they're call it a marriage therapy ledger. And we don't want the ledger because we want it to be flowing because you don't expect anything back. Because if you feel good, it feels good in your spirit and your soul to love your partner. Well,

Dr. Barbara
right? Yes. So relationships should not be a double entry bookkeeping system, for sure, exactly. But it is like, Oh, I know that, for example. And Michael's family, Michael's parents were wonderful people. But his mom was a screamer, she was critical. And so I know to watch my tone of voice, and it means so much to him. And it's so easy to give that it's so appreciated to when we do give to each other. And as long as what you give is appreciated. It's a win for everybody. Yes, that's

Kristen
a beautiful example. Because you actually know why the screaming would be so upsetting to you, Michael like that. Understand that for couples for them to have that insight. It's like a light bulb switches. And they're like, oh, I don't want to do that. I don't want to wound you that same way. That is a shift with couples.

Dr. Michael
And that's one of the things that we do in our classes is that we teach couples to share about their history about their early childhood. And then these are couples been together 1020 3040 years, and they come out saying, I never realised that I thought you were doing that to torture me in actuality, is a whole you have your own family background thing. And so and all I need to do is to like Barbra says, just to not yell just to make this kind of a request, or I have my things of Barbra that I asked for her not to criticise me she has heard things where she wants me to call her when the aeroplane lands. And it's not because she doesn't trust me or she treats me like a child is because she lost her natural father when she was two and she has this then. So what changes the whole as you say you changed the whole dynamic when you do things because it just makes your partner happy. And it's like no big deal to you. It doesn't really make sense that you should have to do it but if it makes you happy, okay, then I'll do it.

Kristen
Exactly. And understanding that like, oh, you lost your dad at till and you say Hey, can you text me when you get off the plane? You're like, sure I can do that. You have understanding. You're not taking it personally. Like it's not landing a shame and control going, Oh, that makes sense. It just if you can get to that understanding, I think there's so much more connection and a willingness to go, oh, I can text you when I get off the plane. That makes sense. Yes, it softens things.

Dr. Michael
That's why I totally No, I think that's a very profound thing. We love teaching that our class, we have a structured process by which we have couples do that very powerful.

Kristen
Yeah, I think this deep dive is essential to any kind of building a long term couples, I mean, connection. Without that, we're only going to be able to go so far in the relationship, we won't be able to differentiate and that will go south, we won't allow differentiation because that will be too threatening. So this allows someone to differentiate and create insight into Oh, why is that get you so worked up, and it's the person's responsibility to self soothe. And as a partner, I can go, oh, words really hurt because you had a really critical parent. That makes sense to me. And I'll really work on that. So yes, I'm very excited. And our tie went so fast. So I appreciate you sharing. So vulnerably that helps people go, Oh, I can connect to that, because of your stories. That is what my audience loves is that the real life application and sharing part of your hearts. So thank you so much, where can people find you if they would like to know more,

Dr. Michael
so they can go to our website, following along forever.com That will probably be the best place where they could get access to courses or books, classes. They can also find the meditation link, they have the other link the name of Dr. Dr. Dr. Michael meditation secrets.com. To sign up for the classes on meditation and our book, we have the ages love quiz.com, which is a quiz that will lead you into which of those barriers are most problematic for you. And we have all these online courses that cost $37. And it's a real bargain to change your life. So those are the end. The other thing is my website in terms of looking for the longevity medicine, bioidentical hormones and other GM cell and other things to be useful. Oh, see, wellness.com is my website. So those are different links.

Kristen
Wonderful. What's the one piece of advice that has made the biggest impact on your life? Let's start with Dr. Barbara, what's the one piece of advice that has made the biggest impact in your life? It's a big question. Do you want us to come back to you? Okay, we'll come back. I know it's a big question or something that has stuck with you and help in your guide throughout your life. Dr. Michael, do you want to share?

Dr. Michael
That's not an easy question. I would say that the idea that I can create my life by having my desires visualised, as if they already have happened, and that I do that regularly, seeing these pictures of where we're going and what we're doing, and that just I can create my life, I live into the future as if it's already happened. And it's really like privileged to be on this earthly plane doing

Kristen
that, that sounds powerful is that through meditation, you're able to do that

Dr. Barbara
we've had many teachers, I would say, my learning just how the personality evolves over time. And what's available at each stage has been very important to me, I'm not and what the surprise is, as I get older, it gets better the levels build on each other. And I don't feel sorry for myself being older, I feel just enormously creative and satisfied by life and my vision for what life is it's so deepened by time. And so I would encourage people to understand that their personalities evolve, take themselves seriously go for the ride, and utilise each time period for its value. And it's so important for development, one of the best ways to develop is to be in partnership, because you don't know what you're dealing with until you have a partner really close to you giving you feedback. It's the best psychotherapy there is. And so I believe in partnership, and I also believe in couples persevering and staying together for their own developmental sake and for the sake of their children. It's a developmental value that's personal. And it transcends personal. It has to do with our culture, our children need to have their parents working it out and showing them how to do it.

Kristen
I'm struck by you feel the best you felt like in your life, right? You're 70 And you feel vibrant, and you feel alive and you're embracing every developmental stage. It just

Dr. Barbara
builds on itself. And I thought I was kicking it in my 30s when I wrote my dissertation, not only satisfaction of knowledge, but the accomplishment that goes along with it. But the creativity that comes from that era just has built and built and I so appreciate every era for what it has brought me in my mind is much more expanded than ever. It's a delicious time in life. No one should be afraid of it. It's just a blessing to have a life on this earth.

Kristen
That's an inspirational message that will say thank you so much for your Time today in your hearts and everybody, thank you for listening. I hope you got something practical and expanded you your heart, your mind and opened you up in a different way. So thank you both Dr. Michael and Dr. Barbara. Appreciate your time.

Dr. Barbara
Thank you. Thank you.

Kristen
Thank you so much for listening to the close the chapter podcast. My hope is that you took home some actionable steps, along with motivation, inspiration and hope for making